Give Entertainers Financial Viability

Ayy · Oct 24, 2023

Entertainers are the lifeblood of this game and this server, we offer a 20-point that makes or breaks the game for all players regardless of what they're doing. Entertainers even need each other, as we cannot get rested XP without watching another Entertainer. When the Mos Eisley Cantina is empty - it doesn't matter if there's an Ent anywhere else, we're ALWAYS called for.

Overall, this server may have a seemingly solid number of ents but how many of those are guild-only ents or personal personal buff bots? How many actually main an Ent to buff for the community or even take passion in their profession anymore?

Not many.

That needs to change. As one of the most unique classes in any game, we deserve more.

Pansuri · Oct 24, 2023

As I've argued before, Entertainers are the -only- profession that requires master of 2 advanced professions to function.
Not the semantics of "well you need 2 combat classes to do end game/pvp!" Which is a load of bologna.

You can mix/match all day long with the combat professions. Right now, you are either master dancer + master musician or you are useless. Most ents either do dance or music 90-95% of the time. So this isn't something outlandish.

You can even argue to take the current point skill points that give allow you to get 20 point buffs between mdancer/musicisan boxes divided it by two, put half in mdancer/musician box and say the other half in master entertainer as an alternative, but make buffs still cap at 20 so there is no advantage to being both in this system.

Oh but combat ents!

Yes? Even taking one of these skills and dump the rest into combat you are probably going to be able to squeeze to 60-65 range, max. Not gamebreaking whatsoever. Outside of like, Mdoc - most ents would more thna likely run a crafter profession for their second profession. So a "hybrid" or "multiclass" ent isn't going to be some gamebreaking upheavel/change. It just gives the flexibility that -every- other profession has.

But ent utility!

Yeah outside of a camp, you still have to be in a theater/cantina to get full buff even with master dancer/musician right now, so this is a moot argument.

Right now, there is really zero reason to deny this to entertainers who just want some flexibility to not be locked into a single track and one location type. If someone has a counter argument, we'd be more than happy to hear it.

Most often this argument is "shot down" by people who don't even play entertainers, so some constructive remarks would be appreciated.

CarlSagan · Oct 24, 2023

As someone who does not play ents at all, I think OP has a valid concern that merits strong consideration.

It seems odd to require both professions just to maximize the single Inspiration mechanic.... as if the entertainer profession was left largely unchanged from NGE. Do the devs have an existing plan for how to properly bifurcate the class? If not, why not just leave them as a single unified advanced class? As it stands, it seems as though they could use some love.

If nothing else, consider making the core gameplay loop more engaging for individuals who choose to play the class as a main. Surveyors get a little minigame that pops up while surveying every now and then, why not let Ents have the same? You could tie in a small credit reward for a successfully completed check, call it the venue paying the entertainer.

Taking that a step further, make entertainer missions more interesting: completing a mission grants the entertainer an X minute buff that lasts as long as they stay in the assigned cantina/theatre. The buff grants a chance that the entertainer gets paid a small fee whenever someone watches them at the venue / whenever the ent provides an inspiration buff / it enables the mini-game described above. Ideally, the assignable locations from an ent mission terminal could take into account planetary/city populations so ents aren't getting sent to the arse end of nowhere and have no chance to proc the benefits of the buff (or if they do, they get some kind of bonus reward to avoid just flipping the missions until you get a location you like).

Final thought: redacted, as it seems to be a hot-button topic that derails the primary conversation.

PhilmorALF · Oct 24, 2023

I'm all about giving Master Dancer or Master Musician the ability to give 20pt buffs independently - but you have to scale things to make having Master Musician AND Master Dancer better (max duration, tick speed, etc..). Why would we have two professions that are exactly the same in terms of benefit but aren't better together?

Rozay · Oct 24, 2023

CarlSagan said:
It seems odd to require both professions just to maximize the single Inspiration mechanic.... as if the entertainer profession was left largely unchanged from NGE. Do the devs have an existing plan for how to properly bifurcate the class? If not, why not just leave them as a single unified advanced class? As it stands, it seems as though they could use some love.

If nothing else, consider making the core gameplay loop more engaging for individuals who choose to play the class as a main. Surveyors get a little minigame that pops up while surveying every now and then, why not let Ents have the same? You could tie in a small credit reward for a successfully completed check, call it the venue paying the entertainer.

Taking that a step further, make entertainer missions more interesting: completing a mission grants the entertainer an X minute buff that lasts as long as they stay in the assigned cantina/theatre. The buff grants a chance that the entertainer gets paid a small fee whenever someone watches them at the venue / whenever the ent provides an inspiration buff / it enables the mini-game described above. Ideally, the assignable locations from an ent mission terminal could take into account planetary/city populations so ents aren't getting sent to the arse end of nowhere and have no chance to proc the benefits of the buff (or if they do, they get some kind of bonus reward to avoid just flipping the missions until you get a location you like).

Final thought: re-implement battle fatigue. It was a core mechanic that made visiting an ent not only a positive, but actually required. If you really wanted to make things spicy and made battle fatigue a fairly strong effect, and let ent M/Ds fully function in camps, you just created a desire to bring them along on extended hunting/PVP operations.

Hard downvote on BF, it plagued the server (especially pvp) for long enough

PaladinTelreyne · Oct 24, 2023

My biggest issue with this change is that this would allow something like Master Doctor/Master Entertainer/Master Musician which would mean that players can dedicate 1 character to being completely 100% self reliant in their buffing and wound clearing. I foresee this as having the opposite effect as all or most the doc bots will just end up grabbing Master Ent/Master Musician or Dancer for their templates.

shintufelper · Oct 24, 2023

PhilmorALF said:
I'm all about giving Master Dancer or Master Musician the ability to give 20pt buffs independently - but you have to scale things to make having Master Musician AND Master Dancer better (max duration, tick speed, etc..). Why would we have two professions that are exactly the same in terms of benefit but aren't better together?

Ya, this could be a real issue giving them separate identities. If we want to accomplish the goal in the easiest way possible, we could just halve the skill point cost of all Musician and Dancer boxes. Let them have both, and not have to change the underlying mechanics, but give them the additional build freedom they want.

Cawdeen · Oct 25, 2023

PaladinTelreyne said:
My biggest issue with this change is that this would allow something like Master Doctor/Master Entertainer/Master Musician which would mean that players can dedicate 1 character to being completely 100% self reliant in their buffing and wound clearing. I foresee this as having the opposite effect as all or most the doc bots will just end up grabbing Master Ent/Master Musician or Dancer for their templates.

I think that established players having a doc/ent alt stashed away for personal use might damage the income potential of being an Ent in the cantina even further. Brand new players wandering into the cantina with no one in it is something that surely already happens but I'm wondering if it would happen more frequently after this change if folks just buff up in their house.

I'm sure there are ways around this though. Perhaps using duration.

Ayy · Oct 25, 2023

Cawdeen said:
I think that established players having a doc/ent alt stashed away for personal use might damage the income potential of being an Ent in the cantina even further. Brand new players wandering into the cantina with no one in it is something that surely already happens but I'm wondering if it would happen more frequently after this change if folks just buff up in their house.

I'm sure there are ways around this though. Perhaps using duration.

Honestly, people do that with guilds and alts now, it doesn't hurt us. To be able to do this on one character would certainly free up slots for a lot of people.

Most of the dedicated entertainers and those who'd like to be but aren't because it is such a demanding class, enjoy the social aspect of it. I think we'd see the opposite effect.

Pansuri · Oct 25, 2023

PaladinTelreyne said:
My biggest issue with this change is that this would allow something like Master Doctor/Master Entertainer/Master Musician which would mean that players can dedicate 1 character to being completely 100% self reliant in their buffing and wound clearing. I foresee this as having the opposite effect as all or most the doc bots will just end up grabbing Master Ent/Master Musician or Dancer for their templates.

But buffing as an ent would stil require ent module camp, theater, or cantina. Otherwise its extremely limited. And you can't do both simulatenously. How many people already have a <insert pocket character here>? If people want to have their own buffbot character let them. We have a title right now for it. lol

Pansuri · Oct 25, 2023

Ayy said:
Honestly, people do that with guilds and alts now, it doesn't hurt us. To be able to do this on one character would certainly free up slots for a lot of people.

Most of the dedicated entertainers and those who'd like to be but aren't because it is such a demanding class, enjoy the social aspect of it. I think we'd see the opposite effect.

100% this. Most ents would likely roll their own crafter as a second class, which this change would allow them to do. Cantinas dead? Work on something crafted related. K'ira down? Oh I can stop playing if their is no queue and give you a doc buff if you want. List goes on.
Making the argument is "but pocket characters" is a strawman because people literally already do this.

Varden · Oct 26, 2023

I think this is a good idea. Currently being master of only dancer OR musician means no one wants your 14 point buffs so you're forced to pair with others, some of whom don't split the tips at all, the result being you can't make any money.

The result being you then have to be 100% entertainer and cant do any other activities with that character which isn't true of combat or crafting classes

Rowa · Jan 3, 2024

If the Dancer/Musician is getting bored and wants to do something different for a while, why not switch to one of the other two characters available?

Ayy · Jan 5, 2024

Rowa said:
If the Dancer/Musician is getting bored and wants to do something different for a while, why not switch to one of the other two characters available?

I think this is a fantastic question.

Daesha'fenn is my main and has been since I started on Resto. She's MDancer/MMusician/MID/MEntertainer and most days you can find her buffing in Mos Eisley. But that's all she can do. Now, I also have a Shipwright, Architect, Artisan and a CH/CM/Scout. I'm more than to hop around on my characters as I see fit and the mood strikes me. And I do.

But times get slow for Entertainers. They get slow for crafters. Sure, we can all play our various characters as we see fit. This is more a question of fairness. The fact is that Entertainer is the only profession that's locked to the NGE standard and this hurts the profession because there's not many who want to dedicate all their skillpoints to providing ONE service (two if you count ID). I think a better question is, who does this actually hurt?

Dagis · Jan 5, 2024

Ayy said:
I think this is a fantastic question.

Daesha'fenn is my main and has been since I started on Resto. She's MDancer/MMusician/MID/MEntertainer and most days you can find her buffing in Mos Eisley. But that's all she can do. Now, I also have a Shipwright, Architect, Artisan and a CH/CM/Scout. I'm more than to hop around on my characters as I see fit and the mood strikes me. And I do.

But times get slow for Entertainers. They get slow for crafters. Sure, we can all play our various characters as we see fit. This is more a question of fairness. The fact is that Entertainer is the only profession that's locked to the NGE standard and this hurts the profession because there's not many who want to dedicate all their skillpoints to providing ONE service (two if you count ID). I think a better question is, who does this actually hurt?

wouldn’t it make more sense that buffs applied as a group effort, so that providing you had 1 master musician and 1 master dancer in group the buff combines to make a 20pt buff due to the group composition?

of course this could work for non masters as well, but would need to cap at 10pts per type.

This would surely provide more flexibility?

Ayy · Jan 5, 2024

Dagis said:
wouldn’t it make more sense that buffs applied as a group effort, so that providing you had 1 master musician and 1 master dancer in group the buff combines to make a 20pt buff due to the group composition?

of course this could work for non masters as well, but would need to cap at 10pts per type.

This would surely provide more flexibility?

Nothing about this benefits the Ent or the other player.

Dagis · Jan 6, 2024

Ayy said:
Nothing about this benefits the Ent or the other player.

I don’t understand your logic, it means the player gets a 20pt buff.

The ent can group with other ents and provide a full buff.

Back in pre cu been the profs did different buffs so musician did secondary stats and dancer did mind pool.

This is just something like that and allows diversity in a group setting.

For me it seems a compromise on what’s requested.

You can have a mixed template and provide full buffs for full duration, the players receiving the buff gets what they need just needs to be from either a master musician / dancer (as current) or a group of dancers / musicians at various levels.

No it isn’t what you’ve originally asked for, but then a master doc and a master cm can’t also be a master swordsman as it should be.

The game is all about balance of sp’s and compromises.

I would also like to add that I upvoted the original idea as I felt that in the current gaming world this change would be a positive to players. But it appears (I maybe incorrect here) that the devs do not agree so this in my opinion is a compromise they maybe willing to do.

savacc · Jan 6, 2024

I would upvote this if Ents could add a crafting or combat prof to their template (and still give full buffs).
What I wouldn't want to see is - Ents taking Doc and being "all buffbots on one char".

shintufelper · Jan 6, 2024

savacc said:
I would upvote this if Ents could add a crafting or combat prof to their template (and still give full buffs).
What I wouldn't want to see is - Ents taking Doc and being "all buffbots on one char".

Ent/Doc isn't as big an issue as people make it out to be.
1. In order to Doc buff, you have to stop performing, breaking timers. This means unless you're buffing one person, its not viable to do.
2. Most guilds/etc already have a pocket ent and pocket doc, so being able to take both isn't going to change much in that meta.
3. You can't buffbot both because of (1) and because entertainer isn't macroable.

2 would probably be the biggest change from ent/doc: instead of this guild/8man hk group/buffhouse needing 2 alts to run it, it would only need 1. These people are already circumventing the system of actual ents and doc bots, so it does not matter to me how many alts they have to use.

Ayy · Jan 6, 2024

savacc said:
I would upvote this if Ents could add a crafting or combat prof to their template (and still give full buffs).
What I wouldn't want to see is - Ents taking Doc and being "all buffbots on one char".

Honestly, I'd to Tailor with MMusician/MEnt.