Modifications to Stealth Detection

I would sort of agree but the whole role of ranger is stealth, kill that and you'll kill the class

Rebotco said:

I would sort of agree but the whole role of ranger is stealth, kill that and you'll kill the class

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It doesn’t kill the class to include a counter play to it. Every mmo with a stealth class also has counter detection mechanics that work.

elvismonkey said:

I dont want to kill it but it does seem to far the other way. I want something you need to invest in to counter it. If you don't invest then chase ghosts.

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invest in Mranger/MBH the consumables and detect camo SEA's? Also conc shot cant miss?

The counter to a MRanger is outdamaging and outlasting them. They invested in MRanger -- stealth is their thing, and you shouldn't be able to beat that for a literal master in the stealth class. The price they pay for that is giving up on damage dealing potential, state application and defense, and having worse general stats, because they had to invest a bunch of points into mastering an otherwise weak class in order to wear the niche heroic jewelry. Sorry, you don't always get to pick and choose when your fights are going to happen. If you don't like that, don't PVP and you'll never have to worry about it.

You are right in regards to stealth being their thing & their pool of *direct* damaging abilities being nearly nonexistent.,. But suggesting that outdamaging & outlasting a ranger is the solution is wrong. They can just restealth and get all their action/mind back infinitely resetting for both sides.

Even just by opening a skill calculator, your point about rangers having below average stats is wrong.. Ranger tree's stats are slightly above average compared to its counterparts. For Example, the defenses from having just the MRanger tree put you 75 ranged & 95 melee.... this is comparable to a MCarb & more than a rifle/smuggler. It has more Stats than smuggler entirely, and is only barely beat by MBh & MSL in average stats.

I think the issue lies more in the fact that in GCW, most PvP is centralized around a single location that you fight for control, having a class that cannot be broken out of stealth & is just waiting for you to leave to take control isn't ideal for GCW to begin with. The only solution being proposed by people against this PV is to do the same yourself? With this logic you are suggesting everyone should be running rangers and just sitting waiting for someone to touch a terminal. There has to be a counter play that doesn't Involve being forced to play something you don't want to, isn't that why most of us play on resto?

Having slightly better countermeasures to stealth sounds reasonable. As it stands you cant even detect someone further than 20M from you, in a game where any ranged weapon is 35M+.

Leif said:

The counter to a MRanger is outdamaging and outlasting them. They invested in MRanger -- stealth is their thing, and you shouldn't be able to beat that for a literal master in the stealth class. The price they pay for that is giving up on damage dealing potential, state application and defense, and having worse general stats, because they had to invest a bunch of points into mastering an otherwise weak class in order to wear the niche heroic jewelry. Sorry, you don't always get to pick and choose when your fights are going to happen. If you don't like that, don't PVP and you'll never have to worry about it.

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OK. So you held the MRanger off long enough to force them to reset. You didn't die, and they didn't kill you. If you're in open world, you aren't obligated to stick around and wait on them to recover. Or call a friend to come in and jump them. If you're playing in a BF or fighting over a specific location, congrats. You've taken them out of the fight for a while, and a Ranger stealthing around recovering isn't contributing to the rest of the match.

As to the Ranger's stats, that is not an accurate comparison. For instance, between MCarb and MRanger, let's break it down.

MRanger gets the following from their class alone (assuming I counted correctly):

• Anti-Personnel Traps: 100
• Burst Run Efficiency: 45
• Camouflage: 100
• Detect Camouflage: 100
• General Melee Accuracy: 50
• General Melee Speed: 22
• General Ranged Accuracy: 60
• General Ranged Speed: 25
• Melee Defense: 95
• Ranged Defense: 75
• Tactical Expertise: 100
• Terrain Negotiation: 55

That's 827 stats from the class, 500 of which are either trap, camo, or mobility related. Only 327 points of direct combat stats. These are spread across both melee and ranged, meaning most players will only benefit from roughly half of the stats for accuracy or speed. That's roughly minus another 70 stats, so roughly 250-ish of actually relevant stats from the class.

Now let's do MCarb.

• Carbine Speed: 30
• Carbine Accuracy: 15
• Carbine Accuracy While Standing: 50
• Carbine Defense: 30
• General Ranged Speed: 20
• General Ranged Accuracy: 75
• Melee Defense: 10
• Ranged Defense: 10
• Healing Potency: 8

Total stat points: 248, all of which are usable at all times, and all of which are direct combat stats. Almost the exact same total as MRanger, but more combat effective as it's more biased towards offense than it is defense. Meanwhile while you both can bolster the area you're missing with another class, the MCarb is still coming out ahead because they're getting so much more effective skills to use than the MRanger is for single target and more flexible AOE.

Again this all sounds like people choosing to play into the Ranger's strengths and not utilize their own classes strengths against the Ranger's weaknesses.

zerim2 said:

You are right in regards to stealth being their thing & their pool of *direct* damaging abilities being nearly nonexistent.,. But suggesting that outdamaging & outlasting a ranger is the solution is wrong. They can just restealth and get all their action/mind back infinitely resetting for both sides.

Even just by opening a skill calculator, your point about rangers having below average stats is wrong.. Ranger tree's stats are slightly above average compared to its counterparts. For Example, the defenses from having just the MRanger tree put you 75 ranged & 95 melee.... this is comparable to a MCarb & more than a rifle/smuggler. It has more Stats than smuggler entirely, and is only barely beat by MBh & MSL in average stats.

I think the issue lies more in the fact that in GCW, most PvP is centralized around a single location that you fight for control, having a class that cannot be broken out of stealth & is just waiting for you to leave to take control isn't ideal for GCW to begin with. The only solution being proposed by people against this PV is to do the same yourself? With this logic you are suggesting everyone should be running rangers and just sitting waiting for someone to touch a terminal. There has to be a counter play that doesn't Involve being forced to play something you don't want to, isn't that why most of us play on resto?

Having slightly better countermeasures to stealth sounds reasonable. As it stands you cant even detect someone further than 20M from you, in a game where any ranged weapon is 35M+.

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Is the issue that they "can't" be detected, or are they just playing smart? A good ranger is not going to be sitting directly near a capture point, but keeping a decent enough distance for the exact purpose of avoiding detection. I really question if better detect would make a difference in 90% of the engagements players are frustrated about. Asking for stealth detection 20m+ is absurd imo... stealth/rogue classes are notoriously hated by many mmo players, but I don't think the answer is nerfing it and giving players an easy time popping stealthies.

You also can't "just restealth" whenever you want. The decoy ability from the striders set gets you a 16 second stealth that breaks after and doesn't guarantee to drop combat upon ending (due to dots, etc). I have been caught out of decoy many times and there is certainly counter play to it... some form of snare being one example, and the ranger won't be able to simply pop decoy and run away.

In this build comparison it should also be noted that if you go something like sniper/ranger, you will also be stuck with medic heals which I didn't see discussed above. The ranger has to make use of traps and decoy ability just to be able reset to heal and survive pressure. There is no defensive ability for the ranger to press when the pressure is on like MBH, so I feel just a raw stat comparison doesn't do it justice.

To add I hardly see anyone using experimental electrobinoculars from the factional vendor during open world pvp, even when they know rangers are about. Maybe adding these to the shady vendor could be a solution to make them more available, and for neutrals? I want fair and balanced gameplay, I just don't think people are using everything at the disposal to the point where we can call it broken.

Can't upvote enough.

Is there a stat called "Detect Camouflage" which is actually working?
If so I'd suggest you should spend at least 280 stat points (aka 8*35 from SEAs) to get the same chance to detect a ranger as if the Ranger has no Camouflage SEAs.

There are consumable items that temporarily greatly enhance a players ability to detect stealthed targets.

Free targeting AOEs also are good area denial and can expose stealthed targets.

+400 camo (giving up +300 of any of other core stats to do so) has left me still able to be uncovered at times. I would hope that considering the investment (and sacrifices) I’ve made to stay stealth, wouldn’t be negated because someone doesn’t want a ranger to flip the terminals the moment that person leaves the tower area.

A real, true counter to Rangers stealth, is actually another Ranger. +100 detect camo, with advanced detect, and detect exotics makes it quite easy at times for rangers to see other stealth rangers. Perhaps the same way you require a squad leader for extra buffs, would be the same reasoning to enlist another ranger, for spy v spy stealth detection purposes.

If I know an approximate location, I’d bet I can find a cloaked Jedi within 2 minutes, 100% of the time.