Make Squad Leader Great Again!

Make Squad Leader Great Again!
This idea/suggestion is Open. You can respond to ask questions or discuss the idea and either vote it up or down if you believe it should or should not be implemented, respectively. Popular suggestions and ideas will be considered by the development team to become reality in-game.
Proposal
As for how to make the Squad Leader profession shine, I have one general suggestion (1.) that I fully believe should fully implemented, another suggestion to be implemented in order to prevent the exploitation of the Squad Leader profession via its powerful buffs and abilities (2.), as well as an additional suggestion in order to help incentivize playing the Squad leader profession and to reward players who fully dedicate themselves to the profession (3.).

  1. Firstly, allow Squad Leaders to use their group buffs and other abilities even when group members are outside of the 100m radius, but do not allow those outside of the 100m radius to receive the benefits of the buff. This is by far the most restrictive of the conditions for Squad Leaders to utilize their abilities and I believe to be one of the simplest and most effective solutions to the problem of the profession being weakened. As it currently stands, Squad Leaders already have a 100m radius where group members who move outside of it lose the benefits of the buffs but regain said benefits once they reenter the radius; but so long as one member of the group is outside of that radius, the Squad Leader cannot use ANY of its abilities with the sole exception of Paint Target. I would simply propose the ability for Squad Leaders to use their abilities regardless of the distance of group members, but only allow those within the 100m radius to receive the benefits of these abilities.
  2. Implement the Leadership skill as intended. For those unaware, the Leadership skill gained from the Squad Leader profession is intended to affect the power of one's buffs and abilities. As it stands, however; all Squad Lead abilities grant the full benefits of the ability regardless of your Leadership skill. I feel this would be a major balancing factor for the profession as it would prevent players from simply taking a single branch "dip" into the profession for major abilities such as High Yield (which grants a +25% damage buff to a single ally) or Steady Aim (Grants +250 Accuracy to the group). By implementing Leadership as intended, this would mean only Master Squad Leaders would be able to grant the full benefit of their abilities while preventing those who would exploit the profession's abilities from gaining a powerful edge over other templates and professions. This would also have the added benefit of the Squad Leader bracelet that grants additional Leadership, Group Burst-Run Efficiency, and Called Shot Bonus to become a viable option for players who do not wish to full commit to the profession to enhance what abilities they gain from it. However I also strongly support a hard cap of 125 to the Leadership skill, as this is the amount granted by mastering the profession, to prevent Master Squad Leaders from enhancing their abilities to absurd degrees while also ensuring that reaching the skill cap is fully accessible to all players.
  3. A bit more of a controversial proposal that I am sure will be heavily debated, but allow Squad Leaders to use their buffs and abilities in solo-play. The possibility of this change being exploited by both PvE and PvP players would be all but certain, however I would propose locking the ability to buff one's self without a group behind the Master Squad Leader skill box in order to prevent its exploitation. By doing so, it would ensure that only players fully committed to the profession and willing to commit 121 (58 of which are used on prerequisites) of their total 250 skill points would reap the full benefits and abilities of the profession. Additionally, I have received and agree with feedback that should a Squad Leader solo-buff; their buffs should have a reduced effect in order to incentivize group play. As for how much these effects should be reduced, I believe that is a decision to be discussed between the dev team and the Hybrid profession senator, Though I would suggest a 20% reduction. Squad Leaders being able to buff themselves without a group also has precedent dating back to Live SWG and the Combat Upgrade as evidenced on the Pre-NGE SWG Wiki here. In order to prove the legitimacy of the precedent of Squad Leaders being able to use their abilities outside of group play, I have provided a screenshot of the wiki page's history as well as the time and date of the writing of this proposal below in order to prevent tampering with the wiki page to either prove or disprove the legitimacy of the former precedent.
Justification
I have addressed the justification for each of my points above but to reiterate:
  1. By allowing Squad Leaders to use their abilities without requiring everyone in the group to be within their 100m radius, it vastly frees up a Squad Leaders ability to function in a group without having to purposefully reposition and possibly put themselves and others in danger for the sake of being able to effectively use the abilities players have made a heavy investment into.
  2. By implementing the Leadership skill as intended, it would introduce a major balancing factor to the profession in order to aid in preventing players from exploiting the profession and its abilities. By linking the power of a Squad Leader's abilities to their Leadership skill, this would effectively prevent players from granting the full benefits of their Squad Leader abilities without investing further into the profession or investing in special equipment that grants bonuses to Leadership.
    3. By allowing Master Squad Leaders to use their abilities in solo-play, players who fully commit to such a group-oriented profession would no longer be punished for doing so and would in fact be rewarded to a reduced degree. By also locking the ability to solo-buff behind the Master box, it would prevent players from exploiting the profession by taking a dip into it for a single ability to only use in solo play.
Motivation
As it currently stands, no other profession is as restricted as the Squad Leaders when it comes to the ability to use their bonuses and abilities to the point that the profession is often relegated to a player's 2nd character as a pure buff-bot paired with Master Doctor or Combat Medic in order to follow their 1st character and grant buffs and heals. It may also be worth noting that as of the 2021 Restoration 3 Retrospective, Squad Leader is the 4th least mastered profession overall (not including Chronicler) and the least mastered combat profession. By implementing the proposed changes above, I fully believe that the profession would not only grow in general usage but also viability in both PvE and PvP spaces. If I have put half of my skill points in acquiring and mastering a profession, why can I not gain any benefits or abilities from it without jumping through hoops and having to play babysitter to ensure the entire group is in range of me in order to use any of the abilities granted by my profession?
As it current stands, there is a general consensus among the few dedicated Squad Leaders I have spoken with on Restoration 3 that the profession is far too restrictive. For those unaware, Squad Leaders are able to utilize a single group-wide buff, one single-target buff applied to one member of their group, as well as a targeted debuff applied to enemies in order to better support their groups in combat. However, Squad leaders are only able to apply these buffs and debuffs so long as ALL of the following conditions are met:
  • Squad Leaders must be the leader of a group with at least 1 additional player character.
  • No droids or holograms are members of the group (with the sole exception of Paint Target).
  • EVERYONE in the group must be within 100 meters of the Squad Leader in order to utilize ANY of their abilities (with the sole exception of Paint Target).
If so much as a single one of these conditions are not met, a Squad Leader cannot utilize any of the abilities gained from their profession. The third condition listed above is especially punishing in both group PvP as well as group PvE content, as a single group member incapacitated as the battle shifts away from them could quickly cause a Master Squad Leader to no longer be able to use half of their template. This is especially hurtful in group PvP or higher end PvE content where a single group member being deathblown and cloning effectively gimps Squad Leaders by preventing them from applying new group and single-target buffs as well as the preventing the use of the Called Shot ability. For a profession that requires 121 skill points to master (effectively half of all the skill points available to a character), the Squad Leader profession is extremely limited in terms of using its abilities and gameplay features outside of well coordinated groups.
 
I haven't taken the time to grind out a template to just get those two boxes, but if someone did and the whole group specced that way is there something currently in place that prevents that scenario (in a group)?
do you want more 1 shot kills, because that is how you get more 1 shot kills.
 
do you want more 1 shot kills, because that is how you get more 1 shot kills.
That's not at all what I am advocating. I was simply asking, with the current group restrictions, IF a group of players did what you mentioned, what exactly prevents that since they are "in a group"?
 
That's not at all what I am advocating. I was simply asking, with the current group restrictions, IF a group of players did what you mentioned, what exactly prevents that since they are "in a group"?
the fact that with the current restrictions you would lose a lot of skill points in solo play, in a group its totally doable rn but most people want to be solo leaders
 
the fact that with the current restrictions you would lose a lot of skill points in solo play, in a group its totally doable rn but most people want to be solo leaders


So if, in your opinion, you lose alot of skills points just to get two boxes just imagine how those of us who main Squad Leaders feel. Especially since this is the only version of SWG that has said restrictions.
 
If you never get hit in combat is medic xx4x worth the skill points. The question to ask now is increasing the range by 100m or so able to happen with server resources. A slight range yes. Planet wide no. But now you see how big the picture is.
 
If you never get hit in combat is medic xx4x worth the skill points. The question to ask now is increasing the range by 100m or so able to happen with server resources. A slight range yes. Planet wide no. But now you see how big the picture is.

What are you going on about now? Nobody is asking for the range to be extended beyond 100m. Nobody is asking for the buffs to be extended planet wide.


The MAIN thing we are asking for is to be able to use our abilities when and if some group member is more than 100m away from the group. IF/WHEN that group member is away THEY don't get the buffs. This is the original design for Squad Leader, this is how Officer buffs work on other servers. This is how it worked on live. Nothing about this request would increase server resources. PERIOD.
 
Im just now catching up on the thread but it seems like all 3 of you are hyper-focusing on the 1st and 3rd points of my proposal, whereas Point 2 of implementing the Leadership skill to be functional as a preventative measure from taking "dips" (taking only a handful of skill boxes rather than the full profession) into the profession was literally introduced as a preventative measure to prevent people from only taking x2xx or xxx4 of Squad Leader and becoming insanely OP. Yes they would still receive the benefit of it and be able to grant the benefit to their group, however their reduced Leadership skill would inhibit the power of the SL buff.

The main point of concern from what ive read thus far is players only taking x2xx SL for High Yield, x4xx SL for Volley Fire, and xxx4 SL for Double Time and suddenly vastly out-powering most other professions. This is a valid concern but I very much feel like the powerful nature of these buffs could easily be reigned in if buffs scaled from a player's Leadership skill. This would also grant incentive to diversify the current "meta" of jewelry by making the Leadership/Called Shot Bonus/Group Terrain Negotiation bracelet more viable by using it as a way to boost the buffs of players who *do* decide to take the dip, while also retaining the full power of buffs from MSL and giving a reason to master the profession.

I will continue to post as I keep reading.
 
After further reading, it seems like all 3 of you have also missed mbt4's point about the proposed SL changes compared to how things currently function.

Scenario 1: SL is not in a group
Current: SL is unable to use their buffs
Proposed: SL is considered to be solo, and may use their buffs with reduced effect.

Scenario 2: SL is in a group but with only a Droid
Current: SL is unable to use their buffs
Proposed: SL is considered to be solo, and may use their buffs with reduced effect.

Scenario 3: SL is in a group, but all members are out of range.
Current: SL is unable to use their buffs
Proposed: SL is considered to be solo, and may use their buffs with reduced effect.

Scenario 4: SL is in a group, but there is at least 1 member out of range and at least 1 member in range.
Current: SL is unable to use their buffs
Proposal: SL is considered to be grouped, and may use their buffs at full strength.

This would prevent cheesing the solo restriction by grouping with your own alt on another planet, but remove the frustrations regarding group members being out of range or Droids being in the group.

As for solo SL being potentially overpowered, the solo buff penalty % can simply be increased until the point it becomes balanced. Another way to possibly temper its effectiveness is to prevent the SL from being able to cast single target buffs on themselves.

What mbt4 has stated here is pretty much exactly what I have proposed. Squad Leaders should be able to benefit from their buffs in solo-play, however they should not be able to do so unless they have mastered the profession and the buff should have a reduced effect. I even proposed a decrease in power of the buffs from my original post from a 20% reduction to a 40% reduction in order to further enforce that yes, the profession is designed for group play. However, I would have to agree with Rezec that its a bit asinine to invest 121 (effectively half) of your total skill points into a profession only to not be able to benefit from that profession under such strict circumstances.

I haven't taken the time to grind out a template to just get those two boxes, but if someone did and the whole group specced that way is there something currently in place that prevents that scenario (in a group)?
To touch on the point above that seems like it was wildly taken out of context, there are already preventative measures to prevent people from stacking SL buffs. Firstly, the SL MUST be the leader of the group in order to use their buffs in the profession's current state. If the group lead is given to another SL who then attempts to apply a different group buff, the initial group buff is negated as it should be. I have not tested this in quite sometime with single-target buffs (mostly due to the difficulty of finding another squad leader during my usual hours of play), but from what I recall of testing them sometime ago, single-target buffs also were cleared in a similar way to group buffs.

To touch on all points and concerns in summary, Squad Leaders should not be punished or gimped just because another player has fallen behind or died and respawned at the cloner; especially when there are plenty of other group members still within range. The proper implementation of the Leadership skill would prevent "bad apples" from only taking a single branch or a handful of skill boxes from the profession and suddenly becoming vastly more powerful in PvP and PvE without having to either invest more into the profession to gain a higher Leadership skill, or mastering the profession in order hit the proposed cap of the Leadership skill. Lastly, those who play Squad Leader and enjoy doing so should not be gimped or restricted in solo play just because they enjoy the support aspect of the profession. In solo play, Squad Leader is objectively a waste of 121 (again, effectively half) skill points simply because the current restrictions prevent you from using any of your abilities, including Paint Target and Called Shot.
 
So if, in your opinion, you lose alot of skills points just to get two boxes just imagine how those of us who main Squad Leaders feel. Especially since this is the only version of SWG that has said restrictions.
Well its a group support class so everyone should be aware of that before going into SL
 
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After further reading, it seems like all 3 of you have also missed mbt4's point about the proposed SL changes compared to how things currently function.



What mbt4 has stated here is pretty much exactly what I have proposed. Squad Leaders should be able to benefit from their buffs in solo-play, however they should not be able to do so unless they have mastered the profession and the buff should have a reduced effect. I even proposed a decrease in power of the buffs from my original post from a 20% reduction to a 40% reduction in order to further enforce that yes, the profession is designed for group play. However, I would have to agree with Rezec that its a bit asinine to invest 121 (effectively half) of your total skill points into a profession only to not be able to benefit from that profession under such strict circumstances.


To touch on the point above that seems like it was wildly taken out of context, there are already preventative measures to prevent people from stacking SL buffs. Firstly, the SL MUST be the leader of the group in order to use their buffs in the profession's current state. If the group lead is given to another SL who then attempts to apply a different group buff, the initial group buff is negated as it should be. I have not tested this in quite sometime with single-target buffs (mostly due to the difficulty of finding another squad leader during my usual hours of play), but from what I recall of testing them sometime ago, single-target buffs also were cleared in a similar way to group buffs.

To touch on all points and concerns in summary, Squad Leaders should not be punished or gimped just because another player has fallen behind or died and respawned at the cloner; especially when there are plenty of other group members still within range. The proper implementation of the Leadership skill would prevent "bad apples" from only taking a single branch or a handful of skill boxes from the profession and suddenly becoming vastly more powerful in PvP and PvE without having to either invest more into the profession to gain a higher Leadership skill, or mastering the profession in order hit the proposed cap of the Leadership skill. Lastly, those who play Squad Leader and enjoy doing so should not be gimped or restricted in solo play just because they enjoy the support aspect of the profession. In solo play, Squad Leader is objectively a waste of 121 (again, effectively half) skill points simply because the current restrictions prevent you from using any of your abilities, including Paint Target and Called Shot.
I have suggested exactly the same scenario 4 since the opening of the thread you just dont read me. Making leadership to scale the strenght of the buffs is a good idea in concept but i wouldnt allow SL to use their own buffs in solo play even at master because SL already gives you quite a lot of useful stats like defenses and ranged general speed/accuracy on top of the buffs/skills so im quite sure MSL would be extremely op in that case. So again for clarification: i could support the change to make leadership scale the strenght of buffs and also being able to use the SL skills with a group member out of range as long as you still have at least another group member within range. No solo sl buffs ever.
 
Please create more player voice threads on Solo Squad Leaders to use their group abilities with pets or droids and i will say no the class was not designed that way. I don't care what server or time in this games life it was different but we are on R3 now.

You guys want to talk about what the bad apples will do, talk about how the good players are using SL to devastating results in PvP and PvE and why PvP seems so one sided at the moment.



mbt4 said:


Scenario 1: SL is not in a group
Current: SL is unable to use their buffs
Proposed: SL is considered to be solo, and may use their buffs with reduced effect.

SL not in a group can not use any group buffs . It is the way the class works.

Scenario 2: SL is in a group but with only a Droid
Current: SL is unable to use their buffs
Proposed: SL is considered to be solo, and may use their buffs with reduced effect.

If your in a group with only a droid that means you are not with another player, you are solo and not in a group.


Scenario 3: SL is in a group, but all members are out of range.
Current: SL is unable to use their buffs
Proposed: SL is considered to be solo, and may use their buffs with reduced effect.

If you are a SL and you are out of range, Run, walk hop on a speeder to get back to your group. What group buff do you want to use Charge! to get back to your group. that seems like a waste.

Scenario 4: SL is in a group, but there is at least 1 member out of range and at least 1 member in range.
Current: SL is unable to use their buffs
Proposal: SL is considered to be grouped, and may use their buffs at full strength.

Ahh yes lets exploit this what range should it be say DWB range? When the group formed up you should be able to toss a group buff on changing that group buff requires the group to be together.



So by not wanting to use Second Chance and save a group member, tossing a heal, removing agro... You are saying that the class is gimped because you have preventative measures and you did not take them?
 
Well its a group support class so everyone should be aware of that before going into SL

SOE never designed the class with these restrictions. These where never in the CU. These restrictions were never placed on Officer during the NGE either and its a support class.

Medics, Doctors are also "support classes", do we limit their abilities if they are not in a group?


If the power bothers you and the scare of someone putting x amount of points in, then a very easy fix is duplicating these abilities in their respective files, make lesser powered versions for non-masters and grant a fully templated Master SL the full abilities.


Plus it was a staple of the CU for a large number of builds to put x amount of points into healing classes so that they had their own heal. This is one of the leading design choices that SOE based giving every class their own heal in the NGE.


Again, I can log in game RIGHT NOW and can easily set up a bot to follow me around and I can do all this anyways. Literally the only scenario that currently poses any inconvenience is if you are in a group doing normal group content. The *fix* implemented by the former dev team is very short sighted.
 
Please create more player voice threads on Solo Squad Leaders to use their group abilities with pets or droids and i will say no the class was not designed that way. I don't care what server or time in this games life it was different but we are on R3 now.

You guys want to talk about what the bad apples will do, talk about how the good players are using SL to devastating results in PvP and PvE and why PvP seems so one sided at the moment.


If one group has an SL and the other doesn't, how is this any different than one group having a healer and the other group not having a healer? This is a case of Group Comps and nothing else.

And you guys are aware that Heroic Instances are in the pipeline and were all designed with an Officer in mind, currently Squad Leader, so if you attempt to do those with a bad comp, good luck there.
 
SOE never designed the class with these restrictions. These where never in the CU. These restrictions were never placed on Officer during the NGE either and its a support class.

Medics, Doctors are also "support classes", do we limit their abilities if they are not in a group?


If the power bothers you and the scare of someone putting x amount of points in, then a very easy fix is duplicating these abilities in their respective files, make lesser powered versions for non-masters and grant a fully templated Master SL the full abilities.


Plus it was a staple of the CU for a large number of builds to put x amount of points into healing classes so that they had their own heal. This is one of the leading design choices that SOE based giving every class their own heal in the NGE.


Again, I can log in game RIGHT NOW and can easily set up a bot to follow me around and I can do all this anyways. Literally the only scenario that currently poses any inconvenience is if you are in a group doing normal group content. The *fix* implemented by the former dev team is very short sighted.
Well this is not SOE and this is not a 1:1 replica of CU so it doesnt really annoy me in that sense. Like i said before doc buffs are not as powerful as SL buffs so its not comparable. Sl are extremely powerful right now and can really turn the tide of a whole group, there are minor annoyances indeed but its not as gimped and broken as people claim to be. Basically i agreed with the first 2 points of this thread in a way but seems like being a self leader is the top priority here.
 
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This is not a SOE server it is R3 and there are differences. You choose to be a squadless squad leader go ahead. This is a community based game not solo if you choose to play solo that is your choice.

I can not see a solo squad leader with as much utility even with a 80% reduction in power going forward.

There are lots of things comming down the pipeline
nice post on what is coming up

Please make more discussions so we can get more people on the same page. Also, search some of the conversations that happen in discord about Squad Leaders.
 
I mention solo squad leaders, but again this isn't the primary goal. I can 100% log in right now, easily script a bot and be a solo Squad Leader.

The biggest issue is the asinine requirement that you can't have 1 member be more than 100m away. In every other version of the game the buffs simply drop off that individual player when they are out of range. Please tell me what logical argument there is to keep this silly restriction that keeps a SL from using abilities in that scenario?
 
I mention solo squad leaders, but again this isn't the primary goal. I can 100% log in right now, easily script a bot and be a solo Squad Leader.

The biggest issue is the asinine requirement that you can't have 1 member be more than 100m away. In every other version of the game the buffs simply drop off that individual player when they are out of range. Please tell me what logical argument there is to keep this silly restriction that keeps a SL from using abilities in that scenario?
Pre cu SL had planet wide buffs at some point and basically everyone used SL as a bot buffer in the roof of a safe house while spamming a burst run/clear dizzy etc macro. I dont really want to see Sls as bots more like that great support class that every group needs at least 1. Again, the range restriction should be removed eventually but keep something in place to avoid the self leaders. Sky's idea of increasing the buff strenght per group member is quite good too and would work well.
 
As it has been clearly stated multiple times in discord and I will reiterate here: I am not advocating for the total removal of the 100m range limitation, simply that in the scenario that 1 group member moves outside of range, the SL should still be able to use their buffs if there are other group members within range.

And again to restate Rezec's previous point: if you are worried about players using SL for buff bots with these changes, you are actively ignoring that this already being done on R3.
 
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I will reiterate again that i agree range shouldnt make you unable to use SL skills, im not ignoring the SL bot thing im actually pointing it out. What i dont want is SL being absurdly overpowered and so far the best idea to avoid that was the strenght of buffs depending on the group size because even making the leadership stat useful could make MSL extremely op too if they could self buff.
 
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I will reiterate again that i agree range shouldnt make you unable to use SL skills, im not ignoring the SL bot thing im actually pointing it out. What i dont want is SL being absurdly overpowered and so far the best idea to avoid that was the strenght of buffs depending on the group size because even making the leadership stat useful could make MSL extremely op too if they could self buff.

Yes. This is a clear and rather simple fix. At the end of the day many classes need fixes, content and several other things need fixing too and the Devs only have so much time on their hands. From a development stand point it is quicker and more effective to do group scaling power levels of the buffs. This will allow the removal of the ability restriction from a player being "too far away" and prevent a solo player from running a bot to be OP.

There are longer term class redesigns that could be worked on down the road, but for something that is a quicker and better fix than the current solution in place I could live with this one.


Note: The 100m range on buffs falling off the player(s) that are out of range should remain.