Master Combat Balancing Compilation

RoHRemis · Aug 10, 2022

Armor:

-Decrease the effectiveness of the armor break slice to be what it should be: 75% reduction. Currently it completely negates armor break

Weapons:

-Adjust accuracy. Seems to disproportionately affect rifles. More testing needed.

Pistoleer:

-Balance pistol damage/decrease GCD cap to .5 seconds. A speed pup on a rifle and even a damage pup on a carbine can get them down to or below speed pup and have higher damage. Bring body shoot damage modifier similar to leg shot or headshot.
-Make warning shot worth casting by increasing the defense decrease to anywhere from 150-250 and extending the duration to 30 seconds.
-make quickdraw useful by having it not respect the global cooldown and/or buffing the damage.
-increase damage on disarming shot slightly

Carbineer:

-Decrease carbine GCD cap to .75
-make the AoE snare last at least 10 seconds, atm it's only 3.
-Scatter shot has a low damage modifier and really no benefit. Need ideas ro make this worth it.

Rifleman:

-Make conceal shot enter combat. Right now NPCs just reset, making it useless in PVE.

Professions

CM

-Make CM dots/debuffs be affected by weapon speed or their own exotics. Right now they are extremely slow.

-Decrease the tick time on dots from 10 to 5-6

-Make shock decrease the target's defense against KD

Commando

-Increase stand fast duration and reduce cooldown.

-Extend duration for riddle armor and/or lower the cooldown. Right now 1 miss makes you lose all stacks.

-Make deadbang shot and focus fire do different things, as in their description.

-Stop grenades from causing a 10-15 cooldown on It Burns/Burn Down

- Fix flamethrower and the token HW animations

-Get states working for heavy weapons: KD chance for rocket launchers, blind for acid weapons, stun for electricity weapons, and snare for cold weapons(once added)

-Same with grenades: flame dot for proton, snare for cryo, KD chance for thermals, and acid/poison dot for glop.

-Allow all heavy weapons to use a pup and be made with gorax shards

-Fix Burn Down! and It Burns! where there is no warm up time but are actually locked to heavy weapons.

Smuggler

-Increase effectiveness to be on par with thyroid rupture and duration of low blow to 30 seconds.

-Restraining needs to be on par with crippling shot with effectiveness and duration

-Make overwhelming shot do something, like decrease the targets KD defense

-Increase damage modifier of reckless shot. If give you a debuff but doesn't have above average damage modifier.

Marksman

-Make lethal shot have a high damage and accuracy modifier. Right now there is little benefit from going master marksman.

Brawler

-Make reposte actually deflect damage

TK

-Make innate armor stack but scaledown with armor equipped. Alternatively, make clothing that allows you do have the same amount of SEAs as armor.

Doctor

-Make dot clearing effects actually remove the dots/states they say they should. Right now extinguish flame is a heal and countertoxin spray in an AoE heal

This is just a compilation of feedback from my time on this server and is meant to get a conversation going. I know it's a lot, but getting this all in one place will encourage people to provide input.

EthavanCrowe · Aug 13, 2022

Kazhar said:
So you are asking for 2 30 seconds hard ccs that doesnt break on dmg? that is ridiculously op and doesnt make any sense. Specially in a game where trinkets/cc breakers dont exists. You have to play smart not smash your head against the keyboard, also commando is not the only build with heavy aoe.

Exactly, that won't work, that's why I said even what I was initially asking for won't work as it'll be way OP. So that still leaves us with how to make Smuggler more viable in group PvP (with a focus on chaining CC) without asking AoE classes to basically sit out the fight, using only single-target abilities.

EthavanCrowe · Aug 13, 2022

Especially when considering that making the average PvP player start to care about elemental resists will add a whole new element to PvP and tend to balance things out. I hate to shut out CC viability in group PvP, but maybe that's not the right direction for Smuggler?

Kazhar · Aug 13, 2022

EthavanCrowe said:
Exactly, that won't work, that's why I said even what I was initially asking for won't work as it'll be way OP. So that still leaves us with how to make Smuggler more viable in group PvP (with a focus on chaining CC) without asking AoE classes to basically sit out the fight, using only single-target abilities.

That's like asking how to turn water into wine, your best bet is using the CC on targets bad positioned so the aoe monkeys can do their job.

EthavanCrowe · Aug 13, 2022

When you think about smuggler in an invasion situation, such as the Battle of Hoth, what was Han's value? Helping people escape, giving his allies a way to do what he does *in the moment*. Personally, I like the short CC and run value of the Smuggler, why not extend that to others in the group (on a one by one basis)? Instead of engage and dying in 5-10 seconds, allow the Smuggler to temporarily give an ally an ability to, say, Feign Death? Or Surprise shot? Smugglers in Star Wars gave allies a quick and temporary way to get out of a fight, or live to fight another day (moment).

To me, this would allow the fight to be more engaging, tactical, and give it some meaningful longevity that would make it more fun for everyone. And remove the zerg component that is, frankly, irritating about these group fights.

Grognerd · Aug 14, 2022

Orrarracova said:
I like this list. I would like to add a few thoughts for smuggler as well around the underground faction rank boosts and center of being.

As a hybrid profession that requires the unarmed tree of brawler, smuggler has access to the first center of being ability but no way to use it with a ranged weapon. Thus I suggest,
a) Modify the center of being ability to be used by smugglers with ranged weapons
b) Create a new "center of being" like ability for smugglers that is gained at some point in the profession, maybe in the dirty fighting tree or master smuggler.

Around the underworld smuggler faction ranks, currently at max rank you get,
+3m range - This works fine
+600 Kinetic/Energy Resistance - This ONLY works without armor, useless. I suggest this be modified to add to armor resists.
+3 "Damage" - In my testing, It seems like this is negligible. Bumping the output of this a bit could help smugglers usability a bit. *Edit - Tested this earlier with another player of the same build without smuggler ranks. This calculated out to a 3% damage boost without effecting elemental damage, so this is likely working as intended. I do think it is a bit underwhelming still though.

Thats a great idea. COB for Smuggler & Commando. Since they both require Unarmed. Would make alot more sense. Or at least give Smuggler/Commando the Advanced Firearm Strike for a KD.
Edit worth noting COB unlike Duelist Stance has a hefty GCD affecting it. (Well hefty compared to Duelist)

mbt4 · Aug 14, 2022

If the goal is more build diversity then something needs to be done about 4xxx healing. Every single meta build starts with 4xxx of either Doc or CM then min-maxes the rest of the skills points around it - it's blatantly overcentralising.

Proposal:
1. Move Advanced Bacta Spray and Advanced Bacta Toss to Master CM, and move Improved Bacta Infusion to Master Doctor.
2. Reduce the cooldown of stimpacks by half.

Reasoning:
1. Nerfs 4xxx healing without affecting the healing output of Masters (and also makes having a Master around in groups more important). Currently, CM 4xxx has virtually the same healing output as a Master CM which makes no sense.
2. A buff to stimpacks together with a nerf to 4xxx healing will reduce the disparity in survivability between 4xxx healing and non-healing builds, which will make the latter more viable.

Kazhar · Aug 14, 2022

mbt4 said:
If the goal is more build diversity then something needs to be done about 4xxx healing. Every single meta build starts with 4xxx of either Doc or CM then min-maxes the rest of the skills points around it - it's blatantly overcentralising.

Proposal:
1. Move Advanced Bacta Spray and Advanced Bacta Toss to Master CM, and move Improved Bacta Infusion to Master Doctor.
2. Reduce the cooldown of stimpacks by half.

Reasoning:
1. Nerfs 4xxx healing without affecting the healing output of Masters (and also makes having a Master around in groups more important). Currently, CM 4xxx has virtually the same healing output as a Master CM which makes no sense.
2. A buff to stimpacks together with a nerf to 4xxx healing will reduce the disparity in survivability between 4xxx healing and non-healing builds, which will make the latter more viable.

I agree that both 4xxx cm and doc are boosted and healing is not well distributed, however the dmg we have currently is quite bursty and dont even have musty items yet, im worried that the game would evolve to 2 second fights. But i definitely agree that purely healing/support builds should be more viable

RoHRemis · Aug 15, 2022

My thought on everyone having healing is that you can't make up for the lack of healing by spending points on more damage. That's why I proposed master marksman/brawler having really strong abilities, maybe even healing debuffs. Make it worth not getting healing

EthavanCrowe · Aug 15, 2022

RoHRemis said:
My thought on everyone having healing is that you can't make up for the lack of healing by spending points on more damage. That's why I proposed master marksman/brawler having really strong abilities, maybe even healing debuffs. Make it worth not getting healing

"Not getting healing" read "making actual healers desirable to have around and viable in PvP again".

kalagonia · Aug 16, 2022

For the TK change, would creating master TKM clothing that has multiple sockets fix the issue without creating a new type of clothing?
I feel that the armor idea takes away from the class's theme but I do agree it needs the same amount of SEAs and tapes as the rest

TheDragoonOfBC · Aug 18, 2022

Id like to see combat medic be a little more combative if were gunna move their best heals up the tree "give em another move or 2".

I have a mdoc/mcommed/mmed.
They arent designed to be a fighting character.
I simply wanted super doctor for healing/buffing the community. and they do that job pretty good.
but all their aggressive potential comes from com med and its not a lot.

tecepti · Aug 27, 2022

RoHRemis said:
Armor:

-Decrease the effectiveness of the armor break slice to be what it should be: 75% reduction. Currently it completely negates armor break

Weapons:

-Adjust accuracy. Seems to disproportionately affect rifles. More testing needed.

Pistoleer:

-Balance pistol damage/decrease GCD cap to .5 seconds. A speed pup on a rifle and even a damage pup on a carbine can get them down to or below speed pup and have higher damage. Bring body shoot damage modifier similar to leg shot or headshot.
-Make warning shot worth casting by increasing the defense decrease to anywhere from 150-250 and extending the duration to 30 seconds.
-make quickdraw useful by having it not respect the global cooldown and/or buffing the damage.
-increase damage on disarming shot slightly

Carbineer:

-Decrease carbine GCD cap to .75
-make the AoE snare last at least 10 seconds, atm it's only 3.
-Scatter shot has a low damage modifier and really no benefit. Need ideas ro make this worth it.

Rifleman:

-Make conceal shot enter combat. Right now NPCs just reset, making it useless in PVE.

Professions

CM

-Make CM dots/debuffs be affected by weapon speed or their own exotics. Right now they are extremely slow.

-Decrease the tick time on dots from 10 to 5-6

-Make shock decrease the target's defense against KD

Commando

-Increase stand fast duration and reduce cooldown.

-Extend duration for riddle armor and/or lower the cooldown. Right now 1 miss makes you lose all stacks.

-Make deadbang shot and focus fire do different things, as in their description.

-Stop grenades from causing a 10-15 cooldown on It Burns/Burn Down

- Fix flamethrower and the token HW animations

-Get states working for heavy weapons: KD chance for rocket launchers, blind for acid weapons, stun for electricity weapons, and snare for cold weapons(once added)

-Same with grenades: flame dot for proton, snare for cryo, KD chance for thermals, and acid/poison dot for glop.

-Allow all heavy weapons to use a pup and be made with gorax shards

-Fix Burn Down! and It Burns! where there is no warm up time but are actually locked to heavy weapons.

Smuggler

-Increase effectiveness to be on par with thyroid rupture and duration of low blow to 30 seconds.

-Restraining needs to be on par with crippling shot with effectiveness and duration

-Make overwhelming shot do something, like decrease the targets KD defense

-Increase damage modifier of reckless shot. If give you a debuff but doesn't have above average damage modifier.

Marksman

-Make lethal shot have a high damage and accuracy modifier. Right now there is little benefit from going master marksman.

Brawler

-Make reposte actually deflect damage

TK

-Make innate armor stack but scaledown with armor equipped. Alternatively, make clothing that allows you do have the same amount of SEAs as armor.

Doctor

-Make dot clearing effects actually remove the dots/states they say they should. Right now extinguish flame is a heal and countertoxin spray in an AoE heal

This is just a compilation of feedback from my time on this server and is meant to get a conversation going. I know it's a lot, but getting this all in one place will encourage people to provide input.

I suggest that with any change in GCD/speed cap that animations while firing the weapons be adjusted to have better combat continuity. You would be surprised how much better combat feels when you weapon fires a short volley and bringing the firearm to aiming position, when it matches GCD. Carbine animations does a great job of this. With rifles you fire 1 bolt wait for GCD fire a bolt. It can result in the same dame as other weapon classes but visually is so slow. You can hide a lot of changes with better animations giving the impression combat is faster than it is.

retvet · Sep 18, 2022

Sorry if this is the wrong thread, but I don't have sufficient power yet to start a new one. Since the launch of 1.0 I've noticed loot containing ELITE and LEGENDARY weapons that are SOCKETED and usable, what gives? Trying to put WS out of business? I pulled a carbine that had DAM of 204-980 with a speed of 1.3, if I was to throw in a RE'ed weapon attachment, this would be one helluva weapon. Granted, it won't have elemental damage, but it could still be a seriously bad a** weapon. And yet looted armor is still considered junk......ya'll need to fix this.

RogerDabbit · Sep 23, 2022

I agree with Remis that I'd like to see healing debuffs moved to some profession master boxes (ideally as a temp debuff like Blind/Dizzy/etc), instead of using the battle fatigue system. Wounds can be healed instantly by Doctors who can still build for and participate in combat. Fatigue is over time, even with an Ent, which aren't usually found dancing around warzones. In general, inflicting debuffs in combat that requires the affected player to leave combat and sit around doing nothing to heal it seems pretty meh as a design.

Including a combat mechanic whereby you can decrease maximum HAM regen and healing efficiency by inflicting battle fatigue (which is now possible via a profession skill), and where the other player has no choice but to leave combat for extended periods to heal it over time, is just too much imo.

Kargasus · Nov 19, 2022

Definitely agreeing with a lot of these points. Center of Being shouldn't be melee weapon locked when you have hybrids like smuggler/commando who are required to take unarmed 4 but then are given ranged abilities/use ranged weapons as part of their profession tree. Yes, you can swap or macro it, but if the workaround is so simple, what is the point of it being weapon locked in the first place. It's less immersive to put away a blaster for some knucks, hope the game doesn't think I'm moving while I spam CoB, then pull out a ranged weapon from the ether.

Played Commando for a while and it felt underwhelming. Even stacking another profession with accuracy (I tried MC/MP), using accuracy ent buff, my two friends are hitting way harder, and way more frequently. I'm happy to hit slow, but hit hard, but that's not what I'm seeing. Pre-CU live, commando was a ton of fun. Auto attacks hit hard (gone in CU, but we aren't really given an adequate "spammable" ability), flamesingle/flamecone hit really hard, and applied a fantastic DOT with stacking wounds. It was menacing. NGE commando's riddle armor CD is much lower, allowing much better stacking, and the dots actually felt like they mattered. This version of commando felt strong until I left a spin group for Kashyyyk with friends and felt like an AoE tickler who was good at annoying my friends by pulling big groups and then not being effective at helping kill them. Spent a large chunk of my time positioning so I could start attacking for half of their damage.

Also, the carry animation for flamethrowers only appears when you mouse over a ui window, otherwise you run around pointing it looking like a psychopath.

I know it's been a while since the last post, but it's showing "open" and pinned at the top. Wanted to throw in my experiences. I love commando, just doesn't feel right in this iteration. I've trained, dropped, trained master commando twice in a month hoping I'd find a way to make it feel usable. So I went BH like half the server

Eruadan · Feb 23, 2023

I will say this. The fact you have to have certain combination of classes in order to survive makes the entire gameplay feel boring. I've seen many people needing to have Combat Medic / Doctor as one of their paths in order to do anything in the game especially pre-armored ( Before getting their 35's). Without optimal gear many have had to be Commando / (Healer), Beast Tamer / (Healer) ect., Its made the redundancy of having a healer in your group mute as a great many people seem to have it and its simply to just survive.

Combat Upgrade was always a bit flawed but thats what made it fun. The Survivability of having NGE mechanics and mobs in a CU era gameplay doesn't seem to be balanced enough for people to try any different combinations of class paths; If you look at NGE classes their stats and such are higher to match the NGE mobs; The current system does not feel like it has that all balanced out well enough which is forcing many people to fall into specific 'classifications' of roles. This limits the uniqueness that Combat Upgrade once had as it is forcing people into 'standardized' roles anyways just like NGE had... I feel there has to be some sort of happy medium here and perhaps some sort of balancing needs to be done. How? I admit I do not have that worked out but (while many of us appreciate the difficulty) players should be able to do some things alone at max level without having 'key' professions to optimize their gameplay. Defeats the purpose of having the Combat Upgrade on display when you see so many Beast Tamers / (Healers) and other professions needing (Healer) as a sub path too.

I say this too as Ranger seems very strange and Tera Kasi seems to have some redundancy of their skills. Just thought though.

jacksabib · Feb 23, 2023

Eruadan said:
I will say this. The fact you have to have certain combination of classes in order to survive makes the entire gameplay feel boring. I've seen many people needing to have Combat Medic / Doctor as one of their paths in order to do anything in the game especially pre-armored ( Before getting their 35's). Without optimal gear many have had to be Commando / (Healer), Beast Tamer / (Healer) ect., Its made the redundancy of having a healer in your group mute as a great many people seem to have it and its simply to just survive.

Combat Upgrade was always a bit flawed but thats what made it fun. The Survivability of having NGE mechanics and mobs in a CU era gameplay doesn't seem to be balanced enough for people to try any different combinations of class paths; If you look at NGE classes their stats and such are higher to match the NGE mobs; The current system does not feel like it has that all balanced out well enough which is forcing many people to fall into specific 'classifications' of roles. This limits the uniqueness that Combat Upgrade once had as it is forcing people into 'standardized' roles anyways just like NGE had... I feel there has to be some sort of happy medium here and perhaps some sort of balancing needs to be done. How? I admit I do not have that worked out but (while many of us appreciate the difficulty) players should be able to do some things alone at max level without having 'key' professions to optimize their gameplay. Defeats the purpose of having the Combat Upgrade on display when you see so many Beast Tamers / (Healers) and other professions needing (Healer) as a sub path too.

I say this too as Ranger seems very strange and Tera Kasi seems to have some redundancy of their skills. Just thought though.

Doc 4xxx/CM 4xxx was meta in live CU too. While you may remember there being more room for less "Standard" builds, that was not the case for a lot of people who cared even a little bit about min-maxing. I see this sentiment a lot and I get it. But the thing to remember is people have updated tools/skillsets and are conditioned to think about character development in ways that they just were not back then.

I can assure you that this game being built on the NGE codebase has little-to-nothing to do with it. The fact is that the ability to self heal is just an incredible bargain in terms of build strength per skill point. There's a reason that every class has the ability to self heal in the NGE and really most modern games.

The implementation of this Player Voice was a huge boost to build diversity and lifted a lot of professions out of suboptimal or not viable status. There's more work to be done for professions like Smuggler and Ranger that are still weak or broken. Or like CH that's like playing on god mode in most PVE content. I think it's also important to keep in mind that it will never be perfect. Balancing combat in a game with almost two dozen combat professions that you can use different combinations of is going to be a nightmare forever. There's a reason that SOE pared it down to 7 in the NGE. Pretty much every competent build is going to be classifiable by the role it will play. at the end of the day.