Space Overhaul

Frost · Jul 29, 2022

Issue #1 – Credit Generation

Between credit chips and part drops, the amount of system generated credits per kill results in a large disparity between how much can be earned in space per hour when compared to ground activities. There are locations in space where credits and parts can be farmed without having to move at all. Running a simple macro can net you upwards of 750k per hour with zero effort. There is no similar activity on ground that comes close to matching this.

Proposed Solution

50% reduction in credit chip value per kill of T6 and higher enemies.
50% reduction in value of ship parts sold to the chassis dealer.
75% increase in credit generation from ground kills/missions. (Excluding BH Payouts)
Adjust the value of weapons, armor, and jewelry to sell to the junk vendor at 40 credits per CL.

Why

Simply nerfing credit reduction in space will only create disparity for newer players in an already inflating economy. Rather than only reducing space credit generation, we should shift some of this generation to ground combat activities and rewards so that both paths provide opportunities for new and existing players to make decent earnings. Targeting higher tier ships for the credit chip reduction will keep new players from being heavily affected, so that they can still earn towards purchasing future upgrades. I’m proposing a 60% reduction to weapon value to the junk vendor while a sizable increase to the current value or armor and jewelry. This should balance out as armor/jewelry drop heavily compared to weapons, yet currently only sell for a fraction of what a weapon goes for.

Issue #2 – Ship Decay

Currently, ship parts have zero decay. This means that there is zero cost to a decent pilot while farming. Their ship remains in perfect condition while they amass a fortune. Even if your ship is destroyed and you repair it to full at a space station, the cost is minimal.

Proposed Solution

Introduce a stat to both crafted and RE’d parts that matches ground items, Condition.
Condition should wear down through use of the components or other factors such as being destroyed, shot, or overcharged. This should happen at different rates to ensure a player isn’t having to essentially build a whole new ship all at once.
Normal crafted ship components should have a repair system similar to weapons and armor and then eventually need to be replaced once broken.
Collection ship components should have an option to deconstruct them back into a schematic once broken and be recrafted by a Shipwright.
Reverse Engineered components should be able to be remade in the same fashion they were created originally, with the broken component being rebuilt as it was or even upgraded if better parts are used during the recrafting process.
Starter ships and their components should be exempt from this as to allow new pilots time to familiarize themselves with piloting and to start saving credits for a better ship.

Why

There are too few credit sinks at the end game of space. Once you’ve finished leveling up your pilot and building your high-end ship, several things happen. You no longer need to buy components from a shipwright. They are reduced to selling you missiles, repair kits, and the like. As your ship and piloting skills both improve over time, you are needing to repair less, thus negating any potential credit sink of having to do so. These changes would offer Shipwrights additional avenues to continue making credits through new and rebuilt parts. It would also help prevent some credits from entering the economy due to parts being needed to rebuild a reversed engineered component. There was talk of making space collections repeatable, but I think this is a poor choice because it will flood the market with these parts, thus decreasing their value. Making the components deconstructable so that it can be recrafted achieves the same goal of the part not ending up gone forever, while also keeping the value of the part intact.

Issue #3 – Duty Tokens And Their Rewards

Currently the amount of duty tokens received from missions, even while overt, is low compared to the cost of obtaining a ship part from Kash. Kash himself is another problem, being essentially a slot machine that makes all those duty tokens you just farmed mostly worthless. This combination makes duty missions less enticing than simply farming for parts.

Proposed Solution

Increase duty mission payouts by 50% for regular duty mission rewards.
Increase duty mission payouts by 100% for overt mission rewards.
Add a pity timer to Kash Nunes that if you have not received a part that has a stat of 95% or above in your last 15 purchases, the next one is guaranteed to have at least one that meets this (excluding armor).
See Narmy’s post regarding introducing new duty missions. This additional content is needed for end game activities. Here is his player voice.

Why

The consistent message about the end game of space is that it is focused on Reverse Engineering and PvP. Increasing duty mission payout will allow players to purchase parts from Kash at a faster pace, and the pity timer will ensure that your efforts are not in vain. Duty tokens are typically junk not only because of their low drop rate per time spent, but also due to poor rate of return when purchasing parts. Only increasing their payouts will just result in more useless parts, keeping these activities unattractive compared to regular farming.

Summary

Just implementing one of the changes by itself does not solve the problem. The changes proposed are designed to compliment and work with each other to bring space more in line with ground regarding credit generation, provide shipwrights with more work at the end game of space, and provide the space player with more worthwhile activities at the end game. There was some math done to obtain the numbers I used, but this is just a starting point for discussion and fine tuning.

reidski182 · Jul 29, 2022

+Support. I think it's about time that we take a wholistic view at the future of space. This is one of the most well thought out visions I've seen so far.

Cyclopeus · Jul 29, 2022

Very well put together, thank you. Let's just make sure we can't 'double dip' on the RE bonus percentage when we RE to repair the condition. This all sounds like a good plan.

Chervil · Jul 29, 2022

I do support quite a bit of this.

My only issue would be with this part regarding shipwrights:

"They are reduced to selling you missiles, repair kits, and the like. As your ship and piloting skills both improve over time, you are needing to repair less, thus negating any potential credit sink of having to do so"

If I understand correctly, the idea is to make it more of a credit sink, whereas this is more of a credit swap, which just ends up enriching the SWs.
For a true credit sink, make it like the repairs you have at the station or the boost time for medic buffs where it gets paid to the system, instead of to a player. Otherwise you are just moving credits around.

I also think that the idea of "breaking" components needs rethought. Ground armor and weapons are crafted from a schematic and then uses multiple resources to achieve the best weapon/armor result.
These can be replicated by stocking up on the best resources or buying stacks of feathers/scales/etc. and also being sliced.

This is apples/oranges when compared with the hunt for RE space parts which are all a "one-off". I can't use them to make more than one, so with breakage then I risk completely losing that special part I worked so hard to get.
If I have spent considerable time and effort to obtain a fantastic component, it's a shame that I can't use it without worrying it will eventually break on me. Especially when that isn't necessarily an easily replaceable piece. Unlike ground armor/weapons.

I realize that lends itself to the grinding we currently see in space, a side effect of which is the stockpiling of credits.
Having only been here since April, I'm not sure if anyone has ascertained yet whether the main grind is for useable RE parts, or for parts to sell for credits.
So it seems to me that limiting the payout for these parts is a good solution.

I agree with the "condition", and needing to be repaired even if it is by a competent shipwright. But I am against "breaking" to the point having to dispose of completely.

EDIT - Upon further reflection I realize that it would be possible to "salvage" the REd part by running it back through the tool with other components, which is something I missed on my initial readthrough.

However as I said, overall I support this.

JinxThePirate · Jul 30, 2022

Frost said:
Issue #1 – Credit Generation

Between credit chips and part drops, the amount of system generated credits per kill results in a large disparity between how much can be earned in space per hour when compared to ground activities. There are locations in space where credits and parts can be farmed without having to move at all. Running a simple macro can net you upwards of 750k per hour with zero effort. There is no similar activity on ground that comes close to matching this.

Proposed Solution

50% reduction in credit chip value per kill of T6 and higher enemies.

50% reduction in value of ship parts sold to the chassis dealer.

75% increase in credit generation from ground kills/missions. (Excluding BH Payouts)

Adjust the value of weapons, armor, and jewelry to sell to the junk vendor at 40 credits per CL.

Why

Simply nerfing credit reduction in space will only create disparity for newer players in an already inflating economy. Rather than only reducing space credit generation, we should shift some of this generation to ground combat activities and rewards so that both paths provide opportunities for new and existing players to make decent earnings. Targeting higher tier ships for the credit chip reduction will keep new players from being heavily affected, so that they can still earn towards purchasing future upgrades. I’m proposing a 60% reduction to weapon value to the junk vendor while a sizable increase to the current value or armor and jewelry. This should balance out as armor/jewelry drop heavily compared to weapons, yet currently only sell for a fraction of what a weapon goes for.

Issue #2 – Ship Decay

Currently, ship parts have zero decay. This means that there is zero cost to a decent pilot while farming. Their ship remains in perfect condition while they amass a fortune. Even if your ship is destroyed and you repair it to full at a space station, the cost is minimal.

Proposed Solution

Introduce a stat to both crafted and RE’d parts that matches ground items, Condition.

Condition should wear down through use of the components or other factors such as being destroyed, shot, or overcharged. This should happen at different rates to ensure a player isn’t having to essentially build a whole new ship all at once.

Normal crafted ship components should have a repair system similar to weapons and armor and then eventually need to be replaced once broken.

Collection ship components should have an option to deconstruct them back into a schematic once broken and be recrafted by a Shipwright.

Reverse Engineered components should be able to be remade in the same fashion they were created originally, with the broken component being rebuilt as it was or even upgraded if better parts are used during the recrafting process.

Starter ships and their components should be exempt from this as to allow new pilots time to familiarize themselves with piloting and to start saving credits for a better ship.

Why

There are too few credit sinks at the end game of space. Once you’ve finished leveling up your pilot and building your high-end ship, several things happen. You no longer need to buy components from a shipwright. They are reduced to selling you missiles, repair kits, and the like. As your ship and piloting skills both improve over time, you are needing to repair less, thus negating any potential credit sink of having to do so. These changes would offer Shipwrights additional avenues to continue making credits through new and rebuilt parts. It would also help prevent some credits from entering the economy due to parts being needed to rebuild a reversed engineered component. There was talk of making space collections repeatable, but I think this is a poor choice because it will flood the market with these parts, thus decreasing their value. Making the components deconstructable so that it can be recrafted achieves the same goal of the part not ending up gone forever, while also keeping the value of the part intact.

Issue #3 – Duty Tokens And Their Rewards

Currently the amount of duty tokens received from missions, even while overt, is low compared to the cost of obtaining a ship part from Kash. Kash himself is another problem, being essentially a slot machine that makes all those duty tokens you just farmed mostly worthless. This combination makes duty missions less enticing than simply farming for parts.

Proposed Solution

Increase duty mission payouts by 50% for regular duty mission rewards.

Increase duty mission payouts by 100% for overt mission rewards.

Add a pity timer to Kash Nunes that if you have not received a part that has a stat of 95% or above in your last 15 purchases, the next one is guaranteed to have at least one that meets this (excluding armor).

See Narmy’s post regarding introducing new duty missions. This additional content is needed for end game activities. Here is his player voice.

Why

The consistent message about the end game of space is that it is focused on Reverse Engineering and PvP. Increasing duty mission payout will allow players to purchase parts from Kash at a faster pace, and the pity timer will ensure that your efforts are not in vain. Duty tokens are typically junk not only because of their low drop rate per time spent, but also due to poor rate of return when purchasing parts. Only increasing their payouts will just result in more useless parts, keeping these activities unattractive compared to regular farming.

Summary

Just implementing one of the changes by itself does not solve the problem. The changes proposed are designed to compliment and work with each other to bring space more in line with ground regarding credit generation, provide shipwrights with more work at the end game of space, and provide the space player with more worthwhile activities at the end game. There was some math done to obtain the numbers I used, but this is just a starting point for discussion and fine tuning.

Well thought out, to be sure.
I like the idea of reducing some of the credits generated by space farming, but to cut it in half would slow growth of interest in space, in my opinion.
As long as the RE parts can be brought back to 100%, I do not see the harm in adding a credit sink, or driving more credits and business to shipwrights, but to make them breakable would be very hard on people who have spend tens of millions on custom parts that have to be made from random drops....
I see that something needs to be done, bit I feel this may be an over correction at its base....
Great place to start....

Narmy · Jul 30, 2022

Add a pity timer to Kash Nunes that if you have not received a part that has a stat of 95% or above in your last 15 purchases, the next one is guaranteed to have at least one that meets this (excluding armor).

Big fat NO and i dount the devs would also implement this part of your proposal as such.

What your paying for with kash nunes is that your stripping away the first 3 layers of RNG when it comes to space loot rolls. 1) that you will get a part 2) what level of part and 3) what kind of part you will receive. There is no need to add any more stripping of RNG to Duty Missions.

Narmy · Jul 30, 2022

Reverse Engineered components should be able to be remade in the same fashion they were created originally, with the broken component being rebuilt as it was or even upgraded if better parts are used during the recrafting process.

This was addressed in the introduction of decay thread. The ability to RE already RE'd parts is a big no no as much as a lot of us would love that ability to be able to rectify mistakes we have made this would lead to RE parts becoming more and more overpowering.

TheDragoonOfBC · Aug 1, 2022

i wish i knew how to use pv right brand new here. the simplest idea. not a total solution but maybe a supporting piece of the puzzle. you know how eso caps fences. you can only sell so many items to them per day. what if you did that to the chassis vendors? just one small idea. also i dont want to watch the world burn. but grow. this is coming from a player thats never had more than 2 mill cred on any toon at any one time. thats my input.

Vadarios · Aug 1, 2022

I really don't like the idea of removing credit sources, while leaving the credits that have already come from those sources... The only people that will harm are the newer players. It's a bit like seeing rent prices skyrocket, AND because inflation is so high, LOWERING pay. It doesn't fix the issue. It just makes it harder on the ones at the lower end(new players).

Frost · Aug 1, 2022

JinxThePirate said:
As long as the RE parts can be brought back to 100%, I do not see the harm in adding a credit sink, or driving more credits and business to shipwrights, but to make them breakable would be very hard on people who have spend tens of millions on custom parts that have to be made from random drops....

Responding to both you and Chervil here, though he and I had a discussion offline about it as well. Yes, I also agree that RE parts should not be destroyed entirely and should be able to be re-engineered to full capacity. The intention for parts that break was strictly limited to crafted parts, with collection components having the capacity to be deconstructed and recrafted.

Narmy said:
Big fat NO and i dount the devs would also implement this part of your proposal as such.

What your paying for with kash nunes is that your stripping away the first 3 layers of RNG when it comes to space loot rolls. 1) that you will get a part 2) what level of part and 3) what kind of part you will receive. There is no need to add any more stripping of RNG to Duty Missions.

I'm aware of what you get by purchasing parts from Kash Nunes. The costs of parts are high, as they should be, and it is a possibility that simply increasing duty token payouts will be enough to make gambling on him worthwhile. If a simple payout increase works and things are fine then great, we can call it a day. If it doesn't, a pity timer is still something that I would look at after an increase in duty token payouts. Perhaps 15 is too quick and something like 50 purchases would be more reasonable. A cap could also be added so that he cannot grant unicorn parts. There are lots of avenues to explore.

Narmy said:
This was addressed in the introduction of decay thread. The ability to RE already RE'd parts is a big no no as much as a lot of us would love that ability to be able to rectify mistakes we have made this would lead to RE parts becoming more and more overpowering.

You make a good point here. I was tossing this out as an idea to lighten the burden people would feel when having to fix decaying parts, but can see how it would lead to issues if you didn't have to spend time building a whole new part versus just consistently upgrading what you already have.

Vadarios said:
I really don't like the idea of removing credit sources, while leaving the credits that have already come from those sources... The only people that will harm are the newer players. It's a bit like seeing rent prices skyrocket, AND because inflation is so high, LOWERING pay. It doesn't fix the issue. It just makes it harder on the ones at the lower end(new players).

Not looking to remove credit sources so much as rebalance space and ground so that they provide equivalent credit income, or as close as can be gotten. Something has to be done, and will be done whether we want it to or not. It is just my opinion that shifting some credit generation from space to ground is the best way to do that while trying to minimize the impact to new players.

reidski182 · Aug 1, 2022

Vadarios said:
I really don't like the idea of removing credit sources, while leaving the credits that have already come from those sources... The only people that will harm are the newer players. It's a bit like seeing rent prices skyrocket, AND because inflation is so high, LOWERING pay. It doesn't fix the issue. It just makes it harder on the ones at the lower end(new players).

I genuinely understand your concern, but the same thing happened with resources and everything worked out fine. OG players used to get 10x the amount of resources from harvesters (not an exaggeration)

EthavanCrowe · Aug 1, 2022

Vadarios said:
I really don't like the idea of removing credit sources, while leaving the credits that have already come from those sources... The only people that will harm are the newer players. It's a bit like seeing rent prices skyrocket, AND because inflation is so high, LOWERING pay. It doesn't fix the issue. It just makes it harder on the ones at the lower end(new players).

We can't allow this to stop positive changes, though, just because there's no good way to make it retroactive. Some positive changes just have to apply from implementation forward.

And don't forget, a year from now, we'll all be the minority with how many new players are coming in the coming months.

Narmy · Aug 3, 2022

I'm aware of what you get by purchasing parts from Kash Nunes. The costs of parts are high, as they should be, and it is a possibility that simply increasing duty token payouts will be enough to make gambling on him worthwhile. If a simple payout increase works and things are fine then great, we can call it a day. If it doesn't, a pity timer is still something that I would look at after an increase in duty token payouts. Perhaps 15 is too quick and something like 50 purchases would be more reasonable. A cap could also be added so that he cannot grant unicorn parts. There are lots of avenues to explore.

There should not be a pity timer or anything like that. if that was the case it would need to be applied to all sources of space loot be that Kash Nunes, Nyms starmap, the CPG missions, Lord cyssk etc. As it is with the removal of 3 layers of RNG from Kash thats more than enough to justify the price of components from him. Messing around with loot tables etc will lead to a legends scenario which is not wanted on R3

EthavanCrowe · Aug 3, 2022

Narmy said:
I'm aware of what you get by purchasing parts from Kash Nunes. The costs of parts are high, as they should be, and it is a possibility that simply increasing duty token payouts will be enough to make gambling on him worthwhile. If a simple payout increase works and things are fine then great, we can call it a day. If it doesn't, a pity timer is still something that I would look at after an increase in duty token payouts. Perhaps 15 is too quick and something like 50 purchases would be more reasonable. A cap could also be added so that he cannot grant unicorn parts. There are lots of avenues to explore.

There should not be a pity timer or anything like that. if that was the case it would need to be applied to all sources of space loot be that Kash Nunes, Nyms starmap, the CPG missions, Lord cyssk etc. As it is with the removal of 3 layers of RNG from Kash thats more than enough to justify the price of components from him. Messing around with loot tables etc will lead to a legends scenario which is not wanted on R3

For those of us that have never touched Legends, what is a "legends scenario" and why is it bad?

jafobss · Aug 4, 2022

EthavanCrowe said:
For those of us that have never touched Legends, what is a "legends scenario" and why is it bad?

Everything was made easy no challenge. Risk to reward was obliterated.

EthavanCrowe · Aug 4, 2022

jafobss said:
Everything was made easy no challenge. Risk to reward was obliterated.

So that creates a disconnect between what Narmy replied to and what he said. I highly doubt the idea will create that scenario....

Narmy · Aug 4, 2022

EthavanCrowe said:
So that creates a disconnect between what Narmy replied to and what he said. I highly doubt the idea will create that scenario....

With the increase in cookie cutter things such as increased loot drops and changes to masses on ships etc its brought along a very toxic culture where people feel that they are entitled to rewards rather than earning them. Not to mention the real decline in skill levels of pilots.

jafobss · Aug 5, 2022

NOTE POSTED IN WRONG FORUM BUT ILL LEAVE HERE>

I believe I have enough time in now to comment. Got my Ace got the Wife ace. run a few things so I got the feel for the server. Im not a expert in this server. So with that out the way.

I believe it was Frost who brought or said something that got my brain going. Decay and the idea of credit shift and sinks.

I suggest a terminal placed by a Shipwright. It will repair RE parts for a fee. It should be made reasonable to the part. Lvl rarity etc etc. However they can work it. As a reward the Shipwright who placed the terminal would get a token useing RNG to award it. What kind of token maybe ask SW what they prefer if its in the realm of reality.

Terminal could also function as a repair for Crafted parts setting the Price for repair at the SW leisure to offer income and competition in the market.

It offers credit sink, income to crafter and could possibly be a easier fix than a whole revamp.

I have always believed in Raphs concept of the game. Players will need other players. Its not a solo game. so giving a crafter some love is a good thing in my view. And i dont like to craft lol.

RogerDabbit · Aug 7, 2022

It is definitely baffling to me that a game like SWG would include a system where player equipment (ship parts) don't decay at all with use. I'm so glad to see an overhaul proposal that not only takes a holistic view at improving the space experience as well as the balance with the ground game and does it using tools and mechanics that are consistent with the overall design philosophies of the game.

jafobss · Aug 9, 2022

RogerDabbit said:
It is definitely baffling to me that a game like SWG would include a system where player equipment (ship parts) don't decay at all with use. I'm so glad to see an overhaul proposal that not only takes a holistic view at improving the space experience as well as the balance with the ground game and does it using tools and mechanics that are consistent with the overall design philosophies of the game.

It did have it. It was removed when RGI VAX HVYX and JSF were added top the game. As you could only get it once and decay would render them uselss.