Starship Fuel System

RoHRemis · May 17, 2022

Starships should require fuel that can be crafted by shipwrights and is used overtime while in space. It should be loaded in the starport so when you run low you have to land, load it up, and relaunch. It would nice if it had the same mechanic as ordinance and countermeasures, where you load it to your reactor or engine.

DJGonk · May 17, 2022

Though I definitely like the idea, I can certainly see the hurdle of new players not knowing about the fuel system and becoming frustrated when they learn they have to keep burning credits for a system that more casual star wars fans has never been an issue in the star wars universe. How would new players learn about the fuel system? How do we answer players stating "well they never dealt with fuel in the movies" without coming across as disingenuous? Whats to stop shipwrights from simply jacking up the prices and making new players leave because they feel they cant simply afford the fuel to fly?

There is also the question of what would happen if you ran out of fuel mid-flight? Would you be stuck in space until you escape pod or maybe until a stray enemy comes around and kills you? Would you have to be towed back to the station? Would you simply be instantly teleported back the station?

Furthermore, this brings up the question of how the system would interact with various ships. Would certain bulkier ships like heavy fighters, bombers, and POBs burn more fuel than lighter ships such as interceptors? Would a reactor's generation rate impact the amount of fuel burned? Would using your booster cause you to drain more fuel?

Again, I like the idea. However the stipulation of how it would interact with other systems and how new players overcome the hurdles of the fuel system I believe would be the ultimate determining factor of its implementation and whether this would be a good system to implement, not to mention the added work on what is surely an already exhausted dev team.

RoHRemis · May 17, 2022

DJGonk said:
Though I definitely like the idea, I can certainly see the hurdle of new players not knowing about the fuel system and becoming frustrated when they learn they have to keep burning credits for a system that more casual star wars fans has never been an issue in the star wars universe. How would new players learn about the fuel system? How do we answer players stating "well they never dealt with fuel in the movies" without coming across as disingenuous? Whats to stop shipwrights from simply jacking up the prices and making new players leave because they feel they cant simply afford the fuel to fly?

There is also the question of what would happen if you ran out of fuel mid-flight? Would you be stuck in space until you escape pod or maybe until a stray enemy comes around and kills you? Would you have to be towed back to the station? Would you simply be instantly teleported back the station?

Furthermore, this brings up the question of how the system would interact with various ships. Would certain bulkier ships like heavy fighters, bombers, and POBs burn more fuel than lighter ships such as interceptors? Would a reactor's generation rate impact the amount of fuel burned? Would using your booster cause you to drain more fuel?

Again, I like the idea. However the stipulation of how it would interact with other systems and how new players overcome the hurdles of the fuel system I believe would be the ultimate determining factor of its implementation and whether this would be a good system to implement, not to mention the added work on what is surely an already exhausted dev team.

We could link the fuel cost to the chassis style and grant starship fuel with the starter ship. Lower tiered ships wouldn't have to be refueled much, especially the starter ship.
In many Legends(I know, I know) fuel is most definitely a thing. There was even an oil refinery on Kashyyyk.
The fuel could be very affordable to make and you let the market dictate the cost. There are several established shipwrights on the server and supply and demand should keep prices reasonable.
If you run out of fuel mid-flight it could go into "emergency systems mode" and disable weapons and flight computers/astromechs. There would have to be a warning at 10% and 5% left so you have time to get to the station.

Again, many details to work out and you raise really good points that I didn't consider.

Melody · May 17, 2022

Please no. I do not need more p.i.t.a. in my gaming life just so a shipwright has another way to squeeze more credits into their bank account.

Aconite · May 17, 2022

We've debated this quite extensively when experimenting both with the possibility of fuel and/or ship decay as a means to increase the sink in space. We recognize the need for adjustment but haven't determined fully how to approach it, but the first step was implemented by requiring ships to be repaired when the escape pod functionality is used.

There is definitely more to come in terms of space mechanics in this area, so we'll look forward to seeing the discussion here.

ecko1988 · May 17, 2022

As an additional money sink, using the personal ship terminal to travel direct to another star port should incur a fee, at least equal to the public shuttle fee.

As it's more convenient I would even argue the cost should be 3-4x as much.

reidski182 · May 17, 2022

I like the idea. It nerfs space credits AND combats AFK. However, the fuel should be really easy to get. I agree with Melody that I don't need another thing to grind.

RoHRemis · May 17, 2022

reidski182 said:
I like the idea. It nerfs space credits AND combats AFK. However, the fuel should be really easy to get. I agree with Melody that I don't need another thing to grind.

So maybe a resource from an extractor or something? Like an energy used in harvesters?

I do have faith that if you make it really cheap and easy for shipwrights to make it will be very cheap for pilots to buy. Spice is a good example. Quality doesn't matter so it's very cheap to buy

Dom · May 18, 2022

RoHRemis said:
So maybe a resource from an extractor or something? Like an energy used in harvesters?

I do have faith that if you make it really cheap and easy for shipwrights to make it will be very cheap for pilots to buy. Spice is a good example. Quality doesn't matter so it's very cheap to buy

Could expand on that to make it so quality is a factor. Higher the quality of fuel, the more mileage you get from it and vice versa?

In general, I am a fan of your idea. Helps chip away at the issue we have been having between space and in-game economy. Further increasing the interdependence between pilot and shipwright is always welcome in my book.

If ITV use fuel, why not make ships use them? Have been thinking about how to handle the Travel option for personal starships. Maybe just a prompt that tells the player "Traveling from X to Y will consume Z amount of fuel. Do you wish to continue?" would be sufficient. The further your destination from your starting point, the more fuel that is consumed.

Great idea, great post!

RoHRemis · May 18, 2022

Dom said:
Could expand on that to make it so quality is a factor. Higher the quality of fuel, the more mileage you get from it and vice versa?

In general, I am a fan of your idea. Helps chip away at the issue we have been having between space and in-game economy. Further increasing the interdependence between pilot and shipwright is always welcome in my book.

If ITV use fuel, why not make ships use them? Have been thinking about how to handle the Travel option for personal starships. Maybe just a prompt that tells the player "Traveling from X to Y will consume Z amount of fuel. Do you wish to continue?" would be sufficient. The further your destination from your starting point, the more fuel that is consumed.

Great idea, great post!

I don't like the idea of quality being a factor because that would create a situation where only people making SB fuel will get the business and be able to keep their prices high. It should be bountiful but still involve shipwright in the equation. The first thought I had was having to refill at space stations but the idea of having shipwrights was brought up, and then crafting the fuel like ITVs seemed appropriate.

RoHRemis · May 18, 2022

Melody said:
Please no. I do not need more p.i.t.a. in my gaming life just so a shipwright has another way to squeeze more credits into their bank account.

Something has to be done about the disproportionate credits earned by something as low effort and repetitive as farming spawns in a ship that has 0 cost to operate.
On the ground, armor, weapons, and even speeders decay. Foods/drinks are needed for higher level content and PVP. All of these things earn a fraction(and are a loss in some cases like PVP) as space farming. If you are running missions and doing thinks ATK it's not terribly inconvenient to land, refill, and launch again. Again, they should made by shipwrights but very cheaply. If there are enough people making them the cost will go down significantly and shipwrights won't be making huge profits for them.

Grogar · May 18, 2022

I sort of like the idea and also loath it because of the potential issues with "argh, I forgot to refuel". I'm also not a fan of implementing new systems purely as a money sink because it risks not solving the problem and affecting many more players. However I do love the idea of adding some new craftable components that aren't available as drops.

Off the top of my head a few ideas.

Suggestion 1:

Probably the simplest option. New ship component that adds a fuel tank to ships with a level 4 Reactor. You "fill up" the fuel tank using fuel made from Liquid Petrochem and Radioactive. This works in a similar way to a repair kit in that a fuel canister fills a certain amount of the tank up and the Shipwright can make bigger cannisters.

Pros: Adds fuel tanks and fuel cannisters to the Shipwright profession. Even level 1 fuel cannisters would be useful
Cons: Fuel tanks could be a pain to refactor into existing ships

Suggestion 1a:

All reactors of level 4 and above have a built in fuel tank equal to 4 times the generation rate. You "fill up" the tank using fuel make from Liquid Petrochem and Radioactive. Fuel cannisters work in the same way as a repair kit in that they have a quantity that can be experimented with.

Pros: Everything from 1. Could have performance fuels for Interceptor chassis
Cons: Pretty basic system

Suggestion 2:

Fuel Cell component that works in a similar way to chaff ammunition. For level 4 Reactors and greater you "slot in" a pair of fuel cells. The fuel cells would have a certification level that must match the reactor. When you're on your last cell you get a low fuel warning

Pros: Only one component added that's a sub-component. Bigger ships could fit more than 2 cells
Cons: No real way to experiment without giving high end SW's an edge. No low end SW option

Suggestion 3:

Add in a new fuel tank, fuel container and injection system component. Fuel tank would work in the same way as suggestion 1. Fuel container would be made by a shipwright with the ability to experiment on the fuel quality. The injection system would control the maximum energy generation rate, fuel drain rate and the minimum fuel quality. Would be highly customisable so bigger bore pipes component would be more suited to big heavy ships and you'd need different injectors for higher energy generation reactors. Would mean you'd end up with injection systems suited to fast interceptors and ones suited to slow mining ships, you will also have Shipwrights being asked to make injection systems for specific ship reactors.

Pros: Loads of customisation. Novice shipwrights would still be able to participate. Higher end ships will need higher quality fuel (i.e. cost is exponential)
Cons: The most complicated system to understand and likely implement. Would be a pain to refactor into existing ships

RoHRemis · May 18, 2022

Grogar said:
I sort of like the idea and also loath it because of the potential issues with "argh, I forgot to refuel". I'm also not a fan of implementing new systems purely as a money sink because it risks not solving the problem and affecting many more players. However I do love the idea of adding some new craftable components that aren't available as drops.

Off the top of my head a few ideas.

Suggestion 1:

Probably the simplest option. New ship component that adds a fuel tank to ships with a level 4 Reactor. You "fill up" the fuel tank using fuel made from Liquid Petrochem and Radioactive. This works in a similar way to a repair kit in that a fuel canister fills a certain amount of the tank up and the Shipwright can make bigger cannisters.

Pros: Adds fuel tanks and fuel cannisters to the Shipwright profession. Even level 1 fuel cannisters would be useful
Cons: Fuel tanks could be a pain to refactor into existing ships

Suggestion 1a:

All reactors of level 4 and above have a built in fuel tank equal to 4 times the generation rate. You "fill up" the tank using fuel make from Liquid Petrochem and Radioactive. Fuel cannisters work in the same way as a repair kit in that they have a quantity that can be experimented with.

Pros: Everything from 1. Could have performance fuels for Interceptor chassis
Cons: Pretty basic system

Suggestion 2:

Fuel Cell component that works in a similar way to chaff ammunition. For level 4 Reactors and greater you "slot in" a pair of fuel cells. The fuel cells would have a certification level that must match the reactor. When you're on your last cell you get a low fuel warning

Pros: Only one component added that's a sub-component. Bigger ships could fit more than 2 cells
Cons: No real way to experiment without giving high end SW's an edge. No low end SW option

Suggestion 3:

Add in a new fuel tank, fuel container and injection system component. Fuel tank would work in the same way as suggestion 1. Fuel container would be made by a shipwright with the ability to experiment on the fuel quality. The injection system would control the maximum energy generation rate, fuel drain rate and the minimum fuel quality. Would be highly customisable so bigger bore pipes component would be more suited to big heavy ships and you'd need different injectors for higher energy generation reactors. Would mean you'd end up with injection systems suited to fast interceptors and ones suited to slow mining ships, you will also have Shipwrights being asked to make injection systems for specific ship reactors.

Pros: Loads of customisation. Novice shipwrights would still be able to participate. Higher end ships will need higher quality fuel (i.e. cost is exponential)
Cons: The most complicated system to understand and likely implement. Would be a pain to refactor into existing ships

Suggestion 2 is more in line with what I was thinking and is a great way to explain it.

MBK · May 18, 2022

What are people's expecations with fuel duration? There is quite the balancing act here. Too low and people can't do full duty missions or space battles (if no-one else also doing). Too high and people are landing to empty their loot anyway. I know this is high level for now but I see this causing more frustration/side effects for ATK while AFK just have to set an alarm to land at a different schedule to empty their bag/hold.

Grogar · May 18, 2022

MBK said:
What are people's expecations with fuel duration? There is quite the balancing act here. Too low and people can't do full duty missions or space battles (if no-one else also doing). Too high and people are landing to empty their loot anyway. I know this is high level for now but I see this causing more frustration/side effects for ATK while AFK just have to set an alarm to land at a different schedule to empty their bag/hold.

In my head fuel should get expended in a few ways. An overall "tick" to represent the reactor powering internal systems (chassis and overall power use dependant). Some when you're actually flying forwards (based on your speed). Some when you're recharging something (shield, capacitor, booster).

Flying forward at full pelt I don't think it's unrealistic to expect a good couple of hours worth of flight. In a constant dog fight, perhaps half or two thirds.

Completely agree that it shouldn't hamstring genuine players.

RoHRemis · May 18, 2022

Grogar said:
In my head fuel should get expended in a few ways. An overall "tick" to represent the reactor powering internal systems (chassis and overall power use dependant). Some when you're actually flying forwards (based on your speed). Some when you're recharging something (shield, capacitor, booster).

Flying forward at full pelt I don't think it's unrealistic to expect a good couple of hours worth of flight. In a constant dog fight, perhaps half or two thirds.

Completely agree that it shouldn't hamstring genuine players.

Yeah that's a problem: How to connect fuel use to activity. Sitting AFK and spamming weapons shouldn't use less fuel than just playing ATK(duty missions are a good example since you're very active with engines, weapons, and astromech commands)

If you just connect fuel to reactor generation rate it will disproportionately affect larger ships. People will just build smaller ships to AFK with.

Blackflag · May 18, 2022

I like OP's the idea for introducing a credit sink and a means to keep AFK farming in space in check. However, I'm not a big fan at all of the idea of having to buy player crafted fuel to go enjoy any JTL content. It is possible that there may be times I can't go to space because fuel is all sold out or too costly. There would also be nothing stopping someone from buying out the market of fuel. Instead, I suggest it's just an NPC transaction with a set price per unit with cost to fill depending on ship mass. Max flight time without refueling being 2 hours or something and would be uniform for all ships. Calling a refueling ship could be a pilot command that would prompt an ATK check. Unless something changes in this proposal, I have to oppose.

Narmy · May 18, 2022

Good idea. Adds immersion and another way for a SW to make cash as it would be an essential consumerable. Adds a bit more immersion and a credit sink to the game.
However its not really going to make a diffrence to farming other than a quick trip to refill. The real issues around AFK are about the myths that are perpetrated and assumptions people make. Just because someone is running a macro does not mean they are AFK and as things such as autoclickers cant really be used etc. Ive noticed that a lot of new players are quick to call out someone as AFK when they are not.

RoHRemis · May 18, 2022

Narmy said:
Good idea. Adds immersion and another way for a SW to make cash as it would be an essential consumerable. Adds a bit more immersion and a credit sink to the game.
However its not really going to make a diffrence to farming other than a quick trip to refill. The real issues around AFK are about the myths that are perpetrated and assumptions people make. Just because someone is running a macro does not mean they are AFK and as things such as autoclickers cant really be used etc. Ive noticed that a lot of new players are quick to call out someone as AFK when they are not.

This is a good point. Aconite said that when the new anti-AFK system roles out they have ways of knowing if you are truly AFK or just running a macro ATK.

Narmy · May 18, 2022

yer just had some n00b accusing me of been afk when i was ATK using a macro... one look at the loot data base shows im atk lol

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