Remove Creature Taming ability from Creature Handlers

LordKorto · Jan 30, 2022

CU vs NGE

As Bio Engineer for pet making uses the NGE Beastmaster system to create pet eggs, the complexity of this system, the number of professions which contibute to the entire process and the time / credit sync into generating a single pet egg was designed on the sole function that pets could ONLY be obtained via a BeastMaster (or in this case Bio Engineer). As a Creature Handler on R3, a single click on a radial dial which negates all the time, work, effort and entire point why BeastMaster was implemented in the first place.
In NGE, having a pet was not required to level up the skills in order to be able to use a pet unlike R3. NGE XP was converted into expertise points which you could allocate where you wanted in your given profession meaning you could level up as a Medic and then use a pet without even having to own one previously. On R3, the CU skill box profession progression requires players to own a pet at Novice Creature Handler. So with Creature Handlers taming their own pets or selling tamed pets to other new Creature Handlers, this takes away a selling market from Bio Engineers which again negates all the time, work, effort and entire point why BeastMaster was implemented in the first place.

Economy

As mentioned above, Creature Taming limits Bio Engineers to make high end and mutated pets for sale which should not their sole function when using the CU system of levelling Creature Handler.
Taming has replaced the requirement for BEs to make starter / mid tier pets and mounts. As a result, only top end enzymes are currently required by Bio Engineers to make the pets they make. All the Isomerase enzymes looted in spin groups that cannot be used in high end pets just get deleted because there is no use for them. If taming was removed, players could contributute towards the ecomony and earn them some credits from all those Isomerase enzymes looted in the dozens instead of mass deleting them, because there would be a demand for low end Isomerases, Lyases and Hydrolases.
The viability of spin groups on R3 and having the BeastMaster system in place to create pets has already devalused the price of Isomerase enzymes, so it would help if more of the enzymes that were looted could be sold and not deleted on mass which while players curse the fact that /toggleEnzymeLoot isnt a valid command, yet.

Multiple professions are required to make pets. Scouts/Rangers, Droid Engineers, Architects and Artisans are all required to make components and consumables for Bio Engineers. Consumables that use up a very large amount of resources. For every pet that is tamed with a simple click of a radial dial, the use of each of these professions is diminished because their contribution towards the Bio Engineer market is extremely limited.
If Creature Taming were removed, there would be a much higher demand for pets, which leads to a much higher demand for Bio Engineers who require the services of these professions to provide the components necessary to make their pets. This will benefit the economy of those specific professions and the server economy as a whole. With Restoration 3 limiting the current number of available characters to 3, it will be even harder to become a 'self sufficient' Bio Engineer by having all these professions under one account which again, will increase the demand for these professions to supply.

Removing Creature Taming will create a more competitive market, making pet prices a lot more affordable for the consumer. Creature Handlers are making free money with their single radial dial click to tame a creature then put it up for sale, whereas Bio Engineers need to spend alot more time and credits to even get a set up to make a pet, this is before RNG takes over which could scupper the entire process of getting suitable enzymes for use - all before a pet is even created.

Player Base

I've seen lots of players come and try the Bio Engineer profession, but because of the work that is involved and the lack of market in selling pets, they change profession, or leave for another NGE server where they have a Beastmaster already or where the system is balanced. All this because the market is not there for Bio Engineers to sell pets. Creature Handler is the second most popular combat profession - the BE market should be reflecting this.
New BEs should be coming in and learning the process practically and build to grow bigger and better pets as they progress. With the way the current system is at the moment with Creature Taming, the majority are getting put off because with the current market, their only option is to make high end capped pets before they even know what a nutrient slider does.

I appreciate Creature Taming was implemented because taming was present in the CU, but as we use the NGE mechanic for pet making, having these two systems coincide creates large inconsistencies with the Bio Engineer profession and its whole process of making pets. Although this is unlikely to be a popular Player Voice, it has to be said as the profession cannot thrive under the current system.
If there is no change to the current ways, Bio Engineer will remain in its box only to be used by the small number of people can afford the current pet prices while Architects, Artisans, Droid Engineers and Scouts/Rangers have their potential contributions towards the ecomony limited.

renegadeis · Feb 2, 2022

SO creature handlers lose ability to collect eggs, but also have to have the privilalage of buying an egg from the b.e to create a mount or a holo? So more of a win win for a b.e. i fail to see any up side for creature handlers so far, why not go so far as only b.e can extract dna also surely that would be better done from by a specialist who deals with making creature, however i am all for diversity amongs crafters and having to rely on other professions for there materials, i am being a little pedantic as its a small part of my role as a ch unless i want more deco, or a lot of different mounts, but i do want 60 point pets that i can not get in the wild thats the b.e role. and whilst devs are playing about with b.e to makethem profitable, bring in decay on pets too

LordKorto · Feb 2, 2022

SO creature handlers lose ability to collect eggs, but also have to have the privilalage of buying an egg from the b.e to create a mount or a holo?
Exactly. As this is the NGE process of how the 'BE' profession was designed, the only issue is CH taming introduced here severely damages alot of the benefit a 'NGE BE' had under the current process.

I love the aspect of taming and I would much rather it could be utilized in some capacity, but it works against the current system we have for pet making.

ICY1977 · Feb 2, 2022

I believe Korto is 100% correct. I think this really needs to be addressed. The two systems do not mix well and needs to be corrected

CrimsonMerc · Feb 2, 2022

LordKorto said:
who is going to regulate prices of be pets,
The prices will be set by BEs initially and then the market or demand will dictate fluctuation of cost, as with any item that is sold.

who is going to force be to make low level /point pets ?
No one is going to force BEs to make low point pets, but starter pets are a great entry point for new BEs learning the profession, as there is alot to get your head around as a new BE. I have no issue making low level pets, there is just no point doing it currently because the same thing can be done with alot less hassle by a CH who tames.

what will the cap be on the price of a 60 point pet?
Less than what they are now. More demand for pets means an incread in BEs which will create a competitive market, which benefits the consumer.

what b.e. will make pets that will make them almost no credits due to parts need to craft low level pets ?
Low level pets are a great entry point for new BEs learning the profession, as there is alot to get your head around as a new BE. I have no issue making low level pets, there is just no point doing it currently because the same thing can be done with alot less hassle by a CH who tames.

creature handlers do collect eggs and often turn them to mounts or even holos or are you suggesting this ability goes to b.e as well?
If taming is removed, eggs would be purchased from BEs, but the creation of a mount and holo beast would stay with CH.

Just don't take the ability to tame away from CHs- easy fix. Instead of CHs getting eggs, they should just be able to tame the creature (like in live CU/ pre-CU). Wouldn't that fix a lot of the problem?

LordKorto · Feb 2, 2022

CrimsonMerc said:
Just don't take the ability to tame away from CHs- easy fix. Instead of CHs getting eggs, they should just be able to tame the creature (like in live CU/ pre-CU). Wouldn't that fix a lot of the problem?

No. Because the CH still gets a pet for free, bypassing the role of a bioengineer.

If the taming gives a live creature as a creature that can follow the player around and look nice (not used as a combat pet) then that wouldnt take away the purpose of a BE.

unfair2u · Feb 2, 2022

CrimsonMerc said:
Just don't take the ability to tame away from CHs- easy fix. Instead of CHs getting eggs, they should just be able to tame the creature (like in live CU/ pre-CU). Wouldn't that fix a lot of the problem?

unfortunately that still wouldnt change that BE's have no reason to make low or even mid level pets

CrimsonMerc · Feb 2, 2022

LordKorto said:
No. Because the CH still gets a pet for free, bypassing the role of a bioengineer.

If the taming gives a live creature as a creature that can follow the player around and look nice (not used as a combat pet) then that wouldnt take away the purpose of a BE.

Live in pre-CU and in CU, the role of BE was the weaponsmith of CHs. Sure CHs can tame their own pets, but BEs could add armor and special attacks / attributes to creatures that they created and their pets could always be stronger e.g. more health, better attributes, more damage, etc.

I am sure this could be applied to Resto III.

It makes little sense to fundamentally change a profession to boost another. The role of BE was never to make low level or mid level pets, that's what CHs tame- the role of BE was to make extremely powerful high level pets for a CH to use. Just boost the pets that BEs make and remove the ability from CHs getting eggs. BE pets can be boosted and can be white chevron elites.

LordKorto · Feb 2, 2022

CrimsonMerc said:
Live in pre-CU and in CU, the role of BE was the weaponsmith of CHs. Sure CHs can tame their own pets, but BEs could add armor and special attacks / attributes to creatures that they created and their pets could always be stronger e.g. more health, better attributes, more damage, etc.

I am sure this could be applied to Resto III.

It makes little sense to fundamentally change a profession to boost another. The role of BE was never to make low level or mid level pets, that's what CHs tame- the role of BE was to make extremely powerful high level pets for a CH to use. Just boost the pets that BEs make and remove the ability from CHs getting eggs. BE pets can be boosted and can be white chevron elites.

It’s a decent concept, but as this is the NGE system it’s really not feasible. So many things would have to be changed.
I’m assuming even the reason why we have NGE BE and CH is because it would take far too long to change everything current to make it in line with PreCU and CU.
NGE Beastmaster processes, pets and concept is a lot more in depth and complex, otherwise your suggestion would be logical.

unfair2u · Feb 3, 2022

CrimsonMerc said:
Live in pre-CU and in CU, the role of BE was the weaponsmith of CHs. Sure CHs can tame their own pets, but BEs could add armor and special attacks / attributes to creatures that they created and their pets could always be stronger e.g. more health, better attributes, more damage, etc.

I am sure this could be applied to Resto III.

It makes little sense to fundamentally change a profession to boost another. The role of BE was never to make low level or mid level pets, that's what CHs tame- the role of BE was to make extremely powerful high level pets for a CH to use. Just boost the pets that BEs make and remove the ability from CHs getting eggs. BE pets can be boosted and can be white chevron elites.

pre-cu BE was more about manipulating stats and overall level than boosting them because of the pet level cap and the ability to use up to 3.
here you only get one pet and anything about it either has fixed limit or is random chance

CrimsonMerc · Feb 3, 2022

LordKorto said:
It’s a decent concept, but as this is the NGE system it’s really not feasible. So many things would have to be changed.
I’m assuming even the reason why we have NGE BE and CH is because it would take far too long to change everything current to make it in line with PreCU and CU.
NGE Beastmaster processes, pets and concept is a lot more in depth and complex, otherwise your suggestion would be logical.

I think it can easily be done- they made everything else CU, even CH is CU, they just also implemented some of mechanics from NGE's Beast Master.

Can BEs still make powerful pets on Resto III? If not then it sounds like BE needs to be buffed. I think its pretty easy to remove eggs from CHs.

Stormfinch · Feb 4, 2022

No offense gang, and I don't have skin in this game because, been there, done that, not doing it again, but why not just cut the CH profession completely while you're at it?

I was CH in pre-CU live. One morning I woke up to find that most of my in training stock couldn't be called. Okay, I soldiered on, there were still the smaller mounts and companion pets after all. Next came speeders and droids, or maybe it was the other way around and the machines came first, but either way, my favored profession was severely hobbled, again. I finally gave up and started blowing up things for a living instead. It's left a bad taste in my mouth to this day.

Ease up the requirements for BE and combine it with CH, or find another niche for BEs like there used to be, but cutting the abilities of one profession to benefit another is just going to guarantee a partial exodus and/or a further lean toward the mechanical. I can't speak for other ex CH, but I find it hard to even own a pet in game now.

paladinblue · Feb 8, 2022

As a player who's leveled and enjoyed CH on Resto, I've thought about how we can reconcile BE creature creation and taming, and I began to wonder: how did they reconcile this on live at the time? Is taming the problem or is the prohibitively complicated and expensive NGE beastmaster pet creation process the issue? You older players will have to clue me in here, I never played CH and only experienced BM when it was added to the game later. I started SWG 2 days after the NGE patch.

I think there is some merit to the idea that a tamed baby in the wild goes right to the datapad instead of becoming a tradeable egg. It's not easy to find that first tame, and many people would gladly buy an egg made by a starter BE if the market were cleansed of tamed eggs. I'd give up my small store of tamed eggs I have stashed away if it meant BE players would benefit.

Also, perhaps a tamed baby inherits a max level of stats based on his level when tamed, and the abilities of his new master. Then why tame at all, if it's going to be a pet of limited scope that you will want to spend time leveling, forming a bond with, and enjoying? Perhaps BE could craft things that would allow your old friend to become stronger, like permanent enhancements of some kind, to bring them to some degree of parity with an engineered creature.

I don't know, I'm just spitballing here, but I think we can find a way for the two systems to coexist in a way that doesn't hose beginner BEs.

renegadeis · Feb 9, 2022

All this because the market is not there for Bio Engineers to sell pets. Creature Handler is the second most popular combat profession - the BE market should be reflecting this. -----------so remove b.e. give creature handlers more to do you said yourself no one plays b.e.

CrimsonMerc · Feb 9, 2022

renegadeis said:
All this because the market is not there for Bio Engineers to sell pets. Creature Handler is the second most popular combat profession - the BE market should be reflecting this. -----------so remove b.e. give creature handlers more to do you said yourself no one plays b.e.

In live CU and in pre-CU, CHs could never receive eggs- this was directly pulled from NGE's Beast Master system and this system is literally a mashup between BE and CH.

In live for pre-CU and CU, BEs made money by creating high-level power pets for CH. Let me use pre-CU BE as an example. In pre-CU, the creature HAM would cap out of 12k. Resistances were also based on the creature with some good, some bad, and some average. In contrast, a BE could buff up all of the resistances, drastically increase damage, get a creature with 20k HAM, and add special abilities like disease and poison. I wasn't a BE in CU but I would suspect that in CU it was more or less the same as in pre-CU.

In Resto III, it's different because now CHs can receive eggs instead of just taming babies as they could do in live pre-CU and in CU. In live, BEs weren't really in the low-level pet-making business- that was always reserved for CHs who could tame low-level pets and sell them or train them as mounts and sell them. Instead of removing taming from CH (which makes little sense), just remove the ability for CHs to get eggs and just make them tame babies just like live. In addition, perhaps put a cap on CH pet levels and with BE, ensure that they can make powerful pets. This solves all of the problems of BE without gimping CH.

Melody · Feb 27, 2022

Counter proposal:

Make it so that the only way to obtain pets is through CHs originally taming them in the wild, and the only way to improve a pet is by BE enhancement.

This would create an interdependency and synergy between the 2 classes, and provide both an ongoing business relationship with each other, to the benefit of both.

JJUNG · Feb 27, 2022

Melody said:
Counter proposal:

Make it so that the only way to obtain pets is through CHs originally taming them in the wild, and the only way to improve a pet is by BE enhancement.

This would create an interdependency and synergy between the 2 classes, and provide both an ongoing business relationship with each other, to the benefit of both.

That would eliminate some creatures as pets, including the Rancor (Mutation), Acklay (Mutation), Kimogila (Mutation), and Nexu and Reek who are created via dropped DNA in the Geo Cave.

Melody · Feb 27, 2022

JJUNG said:
That would eliminate some creatures as pets, including the Rancor (Mutation), Acklay (Mutation), Kimogila (Mutation), and Nexu and Reek who are created via dropped DNA in the Geo Cave.

Making changes of the scale we're talking, it's a pretty minor adjustment to make those wild and tamable, in some of your examples, returning them to their original state.

Were I a cynical gal, I'd remark on one's apparent enthusiasm for changing the state of every other creature in the game to accommodate the op, but balking at the idea of changing the state of these few.

JJUNG · Feb 27, 2022

Melody said:
Making changes of the scale we're talking, it's a pretty minor adjustment to make those wild and tamable, in some of your examples, returning them to their original state.

Were I a cynical gal, I'd remark on one's apparent enthusiasm for changing the state of every other creature in the game to accommodate the op, but balking at the idea of changing the state of these few.

I'm not a programmer so I can't say how "minor" it would be but if they could do that, then fine, yeah.

unfair2u · Feb 27, 2022

Melody said:
Making changes of the scale we're talking, it's a pretty minor adjustment to make those wild and tamable, in some of your examples, returning them to their original state.

Were I a cynical gal, I'd remark on one's apparent enthusiasm for changing the state of every other creature in the game to accommodate the op, but balking at the idea of changing the state of these few.

a nice chunk of the mutations dont exist in the wild. Also taming was added a month or two after launch prior you had a chance to find eggs from searching lairs. a system that makes BE into a sort of upgrade class is interesting but that would require quite a bit of reworking over just removing the added taming to balance the system

Drueric · Feb 27, 2022

Im not sure, but isnt it only creature handlers that can even use pets? So, they are selling them to themselves.. Maybe just remove the ability of creature handlers to sell pets. Bio engineers can take on a similar role that smugglers have in regards to slicing weapons. Bio engineers can "slice" Creature handler pets for a fee. Or maybe they can already do that, I dont know what BE's do...

CH tames a pet, raises the pet, trains the pet, then takes pet to a BE who then genetically modifies pet to make it better. Unless thats what they already do... either way, it doesnt makes sense to take away CH taming.