Remove Creature Taming ability from Creature Handlers

LordKorto · Jan 30, 2022

CU vs NGE

As Bio Engineer for pet making uses the NGE Beastmaster system to create pet eggs, the complexity of this system, the number of professions which contibute to the entire process and the time / credit sync into generating a single pet egg was designed on the sole function that pets could ONLY be obtained via a BeastMaster (or in this case Bio Engineer). As a Creature Handler on R3, a single click on a radial dial which negates all the time, work, effort and entire point why BeastMaster was implemented in the first place.
In NGE, having a pet was not required to level up the skills in order to be able to use a pet unlike R3. NGE XP was converted into expertise points which you could allocate where you wanted in your given profession meaning you could level up as a Medic and then use a pet without even having to own one previously. On R3, the CU skill box profession progression requires players to own a pet at Novice Creature Handler. So with Creature Handlers taming their own pets or selling tamed pets to other new Creature Handlers, this takes away a selling market from Bio Engineers which again negates all the time, work, effort and entire point why BeastMaster was implemented in the first place.

Economy

As mentioned above, Creature Taming limits Bio Engineers to make high end and mutated pets for sale which should not their sole function when using the CU system of levelling Creature Handler.
Taming has replaced the requirement for BEs to make starter / mid tier pets and mounts. As a result, only top end enzymes are currently required by Bio Engineers to make the pets they make. All the Isomerase enzymes looted in spin groups that cannot be used in high end pets just get deleted because there is no use for them. If taming was removed, players could contributute towards the ecomony and earn them some credits from all those Isomerase enzymes looted in the dozens instead of mass deleting them, because there would be a demand for low end Isomerases, Lyases and Hydrolases.
The viability of spin groups on R3 and having the BeastMaster system in place to create pets has already devalused the price of Isomerase enzymes, so it would help if more of the enzymes that were looted could be sold and not deleted on mass which while players curse the fact that /toggleEnzymeLoot isnt a valid command, yet.

Multiple professions are required to make pets. Scouts/Rangers, Droid Engineers, Architects and Artisans are all required to make components and consumables for Bio Engineers. Consumables that use up a very large amount of resources. For every pet that is tamed with a simple click of a radial dial, the use of each of these professions is diminished because their contribution towards the Bio Engineer market is extremely limited.
If Creature Taming were removed, there would be a much higher demand for pets, which leads to a much higher demand for Bio Engineers who require the services of these professions to provide the components necessary to make their pets. This will benefit the economy of those specific professions and the server economy as a whole. With Restoration 3 limiting the current number of available characters to 3, it will be even harder to become a 'self sufficient' Bio Engineer by having all these professions under one account which again, will increase the demand for these professions to supply.

Removing Creature Taming will create a more competitive market, making pet prices a lot more affordable for the consumer. Creature Handlers are making free money with their single radial dial click to tame a creature then put it up for sale, whereas Bio Engineers need to spend alot more time and credits to even get a set up to make a pet, this is before RNG takes over which could scupper the entire process of getting suitable enzymes for use - all before a pet is even created.

Player Base

I've seen lots of players come and try the Bio Engineer profession, but because of the work that is involved and the lack of market in selling pets, they change profession, or leave for another NGE server where they have a Beastmaster already or where the system is balanced. All this because the market is not there for Bio Engineers to sell pets. Creature Handler is the second most popular combat profession - the BE market should be reflecting this.
New BEs should be coming in and learning the process practically and build to grow bigger and better pets as they progress. With the way the current system is at the moment with Creature Taming, the majority are getting put off because with the current market, their only option is to make high end capped pets before they even know what a nutrient slider does.

I appreciate Creature Taming was implemented because taming was present in the CU, but as we use the NGE mechanic for pet making, having these two systems coincide creates large inconsistencies with the Bio Engineer profession and its whole process of making pets. Although this is unlikely to be a popular Player Voice, it has to be said as the profession cannot thrive under the current system.
If there is no change to the current ways, Bio Engineer will remain in its box only to be used by the small number of people can afford the current pet prices while Architects, Artisans, Droid Engineers and Scouts/Rangers have their potential contributions towards the ecomony limited.

Kimber · Feb 27, 2022

CH tames pets which have meh stats unless your really lucky. They also make mounts. BE makes mutated and high end pets much better than tamed pets

unfair2u · Feb 27, 2022

Kimber said:
CH tames pets which have meh stats unless your really lucky. They also make mounts. BE makes mutated and high end pets much better than tamed pets

thats the thing tho you just tame large amounts and keep the decent ones unless its available for mount. babies are decently common youll spend maybe a couple minutes taming and a bit longer than that looking for one where a BE needs to get an extractor from a master artisan go out kill 3 things for hydros find 6 isos forage 3 layse and get 7500 geothermal energy in addition to an incubator then unless they are master wait on three 30 minute to 1 hour sessions and thats just to quickly throw together a pet that would be at most like a 24 pt. not forgetting that a BE can only have one active incubator as well

dnian3 · Feb 27, 2022

unfair2u said:
thats the thing tho you just tame large amounts and keep the decent ones unless its available for mount. babies are decently common youll spend maybe a couple minutes taming and a bit longer than that looking for one where a BE needs to get an extractor from a master artisan go out kill 3 things for hydros find 6 isos forage 3 layse and get 7500 geothermal energy in addition to an incubator then unless they are master wait on three 30 minute to 1 hour sessions and thats just to quickly throw together a pet that would be at most like a 24 pt. not forgetting that a BE can only have one active incubator as well

But really, that is the gameplay you choose when you picked a crafting class, every crafting class need to gather resources before they can craft anything, and they will have a hard time selling the lower tier items they craft until they setup at good production line and provide the items people will want to buy..

Instead of pushing for CH should lose the ability to tame a at max 45 point pet if they get really lucky, push for changing BE to what it was before NGE introduced the beastmaster system late in game.

I really doubt CH are making a ton of money taming and selling low pt eggs on vendors to other CH who them self can go out and tame a creature and are denying BE their profits.

The system is broken because R3 choose to reuse the BE and beastmaster system from NGE instead of recreating what it was like back in CU, and your arguments fall a bit flat since every pet in NGE was created my BE and they still cost a lot, removing CH from the equation will not cause the prices to fall or create a market for pets with low points. Back on live it was the same, either you produce +50pt pets or you didn't sell anything at all.

There has been plenty of good suggestions in this thread so far as to how the system can be changed for the benefit of BE's without removing the pretty fundamental feature of taming from the creature handlers. Such as letting BE boost tamed pets stats or craft supplements to boost loyalty and skill learning.

BuddyHightower · Mar 1, 2022

CrimsonMerc said:
just remove the ability for CHs to get eggs and just make them tame babies just like live. In addition, perhaps put a cap on CH pet levels and with BE, ensure that they can make powerful pets. This solves all of the problems of BE without gimping CH.

Not really.
I went out and grinded out master CH over the last week or so to have a better understanding of this issue.
In the current system, who would ever choose to use a CH tamed pet over a BE crafted pet?
The best pet I have been able to tame in the wild so far is a 43 point Bolmha (however it is spelt) from Dath.
As far as I am concerned, it's trash. Why, because a BE can make 60 point pets and control where those points go.

If anything this is backward, it's too easy for a BE to make a pet that makes all wild creatures trash.
The only thing CH has going for it is the ability to train mounts.

Here is my proposal, and if I replied to this thread earlier, ignore it!
Remove pet crafting from BEs completely.
Instead require a CH to tame a pet and bring it to a BE so that a BE can modify it.
The BE would charge the CH for the mods.

Drueric · Mar 1, 2022

BuddyHightower said:
Here is my proposal, and if I replied to this thread earlier, ignore it!
Remove pet crafting from BEs completely.
Instead require a CH to tame a pet and bring it to a BE so that a BE can modify it.
The BE would charge the CH for the mods.

That is pretty much what I said.

ICY1977 · Mar 1, 2022

Eggs could stay in the game as before they added babies you could go a hour of doing lairs and not find a egg the problem is that there are babies every 10 feet it seems

BuddyHightower · Mar 1, 2022

ICY1977 said:
Eggs could stay in the game as before they added babies you could go a hour of doing lairs and not find a egg the problem is that there are babies every 10 feet it seems

Yep, but those babies will only be 20 - 40 point beasts.
No different really than looting rifles as you level up then buying a top level crafted rifle at master.
I mean, how many people do you see selling low level weapons compared to top end?

I think they just need to find a way for BEs to make money off the tamed CH beasts.
They can continue to make 60 point pets for end game and could maybe mod out tamed pets as a side job.
They will always have the mutations.

Another thing that would help is moving pet food and stims to BE, and take them away from chef and artisan.

also, there is noting stopping a BE from making low level pets now, it would be easier for me to find the pet I want on the bazar than looking for the right baby to tame.

Stormfinch · Mar 1, 2022

BuddyHightower said:
I mean, how many people do you see selling low level weapons compared to top end?

A lot of them truthfully. Quite a few players tend to run spin groups and ignore the legacy missions, which means they don't get the weapons drops. There's even a special tent set up near one of the more popular spin areas that does a brisk business in lower CL weapons. If you've got a player going through spins and buying a new weapon every 6+ levels for 12k and upward each, which is making you more money when compared to selling a single top end weapon when that character reaches 80?

When I said earlier in this thread that I refused to touch CH again, I guess I lied, though it wasn't intentional. In searching for a profession I wanted to play and that would get me to cap, I spur of the moment went ahead and trained into CH. IMHO, as the profession sits now, taming is the only real fun. Feeding the darn thing every hour on the hour and babysitting it so that it doesn't get itself killed... all for as Buddy has said, a substandard adult? Had there been BE pets that I could use and afford at my level, like any other weapon, maybe, maybe I would have stuck with it. Instead, I trained into something else, same amount of box ticks in less time and I don't have to feed my weapon. lol

KeiranHalcyon78 · Mar 2, 2022

Hello everyone, I just logged into this forum and i am reading the Bio-engineer concerns when I originally played SWG back during pre-cu and cu one of the professions i mastered was Creature Handler and i was going to start Bioengineer but like a number of people I left after the NGE hit i felt it became more of a World of Warcraft Clone. But enough of that I just wanted to give some background on myself, now to put in my thoughts about this. If I remember correctly the Creature Handler and Bioengineer essentially worked side by side yes, we did have to tap a nest until a baby popped then we would have to use the tame function which didn't always succeed on the first try and if the animal had too high of a CL you would be unable to tame it. This was where the Bioengineer came in if there was a certain pet that the CH wanted but was unable to tame said creature, they would ask the BE to make one for them of course this was only part of what the BE did sometimes the CH would also go to the BE and ask them to give their pets certain abilities that were not part of the pet's initial skill set IE a Sludge Panther that was able to spit poison. it was in stuff like this that the BE would excel at as such I don't really see the need to remove taming admittedly on the R3 server I haven't played as a CH, yet I am just basing this post on how I remember the relationship between BE and CH being also if I recall correctly Bioengineer was branched off from Creature Handler of course I could be completely wrong as I am writing this post based on something like memories from 15 years ago feel free to correct me as needed I hope this post does what I intended it to do that being to show how the relationship between Creature Handler and Bioengineer was originally like and to try expand a bit on how taming and Creature Handler originally worked.

JediJAL · Jul 16, 2022

No thanks.

Taming is a significant part of the C.H. identity for me. I'd rather they drop B.E. and make taming pets for C.H. even more important to class. As it stands in July 2022, every C.H. pretty much needs to give 1-15m credits to a B.E. at level 80.

arvenia · Jul 16, 2022

JediJAL said:
No thanks.

Taming is a significant part of the C.H. identity for me. I'd rather they drop B.E. and make taming pets for C.H. even more important to class. As it stands in July 2022, every C.H. pretty much needs to give 1-15m credits to a B.E. at level 80.

Both taming and BE system are nice, and can exist well together. Taming as a cheap way to start for a CH, plus taming babies in the wild is kinda cute, BE as a sure way to get capped pets and the only way to actually get a mutated pet. If you don't wanna pay 1mil, you can always try your luck and tame away until the RNG gods smile at you

One million credits is actually not a high price at all, having in mind the efford and mats the BE put into the capped pets making. The pets who cost more are mutants that require even more efford and mats, and ofc RNG luck, but nobody NEEDs to buy them if they can't afford them.

RGViza · Jul 16, 2022

arvenia said:
Both taming and BE system are nice, and can exist well together. Taming as a cheap way to start for a CH, plus taming babies in the wild is kinda cute, BE as a sure way to get capped pets and the only way to actually get a mutated pet. If you don't wanna pay 1mil, you can always try your luck and tame away until the RNG gods smile at you One million credits is actually not a high price at all, having in mind the efford and mats the BE put into the capped pets making. The pets who cost more are mutants that require even more efford and mats, and ofc RNG luck, but nobody NEEDs to buy them if they can't afford them.

yea and you can get a 45+ point pet taming in the wilderness. I've gotten to 47. At level cap and bff they're not that disadvantaged compared to a 60 pt pet, just not quite as good, and when I say the difference is small, it's a lot smaller than you'd think. I have to look at the numbers to tell the difference. It definitely matters in pvp, but in 95% of pve they work good enough for you to solo stuff assuming your kit is decent and you use food.

Grognerd · Aug 14, 2022

Are you being serious

"The change to Creature Handlers will be minimal "....

How would CH's get their first pet?

Stormfinch · Aug 14, 2022

Grognerd said:
Are you being serious

"The change to Creature Handlers will be minimal "....

How would CH's get their first pet?

Oh, don't worry, there are bio engineers that would be more than happy to supply handlers with any amount of crafted pets, for a price. You see, there are some here who believe that if creature handlers were nerfed, they would finally have a lucrative business plan. Ironic since I hear the exact same "no sales" grumblings from a certain server with nary a tamer in sight. It's almost like high prices combined with low, scattered server pops have more to do with it than people who happen to enjoy the taming process.

Grognerd · Aug 14, 2022

Stormfinch said:
Oh, don't worry, there are bio engineers that would be more than happy to supply handlers with any amount of crafted pets, for a price. You see, there are some here who believe that if creature handlers were nerfed, they would finally have a lucrative business plan. Ironic since I hear the exact same "no sales" grumblings from a certain server with nary a tamer in sight. It's almost like high prices combined with low, scattered server pops have more to do with it than people who happen to enjoy the taming process.

Alot of that thinking going around

Nilden · Aug 15, 2022

How about no. I would quit if I couldn't tame as a MCH. In fact finding out I couldn't tame baby rancors etc was horrible.

Why not have some synergy between the professions?

Make it so BE can use the tames/eggs from CH to extract something like getting DNA from them or enzymes. Why not just make BE better? If most of the enzymes are trash and destroyed because they are useless why not make it so you can combine the lesser quality ones to make higher quality ones? CH should be able to help BE obtain resources to make pets. BE should make enhanced pets and pet enhancements.

I think making it so you couldn't tame rancors etc was a huge mistake and this proposal of not being able to tame at all would be even worse.

gevdwyn · Aug 17, 2022

Nilden said:
How about no. I would quit if I couldn't tame as a MCH. In fact finding out I couldn't tame baby rancors etc was horrible.

Why not have some synergy between the professions?

Make it so BE can use the tames/eggs from CH to extract something like getting DNA from them or enzymes. Why not just make BE better? If most of the enzymes are trash and destroyed because they are useless why not make it so you can combine the lesser quality ones to make higher quality ones? CH should be able to help BE obtain resources to make pets. BE should make enhanced pets and pet enhancements.

I think making it so you couldn't tame rancors etc was a huge mistake and this proposal of not being able to tame at all would be even worse.

I feel the same away about rancors (whole reason why I wanted to be a CH on a live lmao).

I think it would be good synergy if tamers could provide eggs to BEs and they could genetically deconstruct its individual components (especially if the components you receive from higher quality eggs are of higher quality as well). In addition, if this PV (https://swgr.org/post/improved-ch-creature-diversity.403/) were to be implemented, there could be a high demand for tamers to provide eggs of rare sub-species.